TargetTalk

Most of you know that I have just passed my first year of touching a firearm. For the record I have never tried my hands on anything that involves shooting be that in archery, crossbow, or event knife throwing. I am still at a stage to learn how to hold an AR. In this short period I am in love with revolvers, for fun, but the one discipline I really love is free pistol. I got involved in air pistol because FredB suggested me to learn proper pistol handling by learning how to shoot AP first before attempting to fire any live firearms. As previous posts I have mentioned, I was super clumsy on semi-automatic sidearm, ruining at least one expensive pistol, among other offenses. I am not allowed to touch any semi-automatic sidearm again until a proper instructor trains me, assuming I am still interested.

My sport background was one year in rugby team in high school, three years as captain of my University's badminton team, and four years competing nationally in motorcycles racing, being ranked nationally and has my owned plate. Then I became disabled, at one point I never saw the outside of a house for 3 months. That was how bad my bedridden state was. Also, anything slightly above my waste and below are useless. All the muscle and organs have minds of their own, and that means I felt pain from diaphragm to my toe, and every single part in between. Believe it or not, the most devastation effect was that I could no longer race. At one point I was top 10 nationally.

When I first purchased a pistol from bummer 7, a genuinely good guy, who sold it on behalf of a friend, I was told never to touch the sights. Subsequently I cannot form a correct sight picture, and if I did, the cant and the grip holding is ridiculous. If I aim the way people told me to hold a pistol normally, I will cross fire. I never did discussed the fact to bummer7, probably because I thought he was always right. I did not take into the account that the pistol (Walther 300) was set up for the owner who is much taller than me and has a different approach on footwork and posture, plus prefer it to be barrel heavy. We have philosophical difference, and to him I acted way too competitive. I don't know whether it was me being used to taking pole in a race, or that I was frustrated by the fact that I have to twist my wrist and position myself strangely just to hit the target paper. To me that was not competitive at all. I did not even have fun.

My first match ended up at 84, so bad that it was tossed away without reporting to the USA Shooting. It was less than 3 weeks after I purchased the Walter 300. I was so discouraged that I almost quit at the spot, until someone handed me a Steyr LP1 and then I got to hold a PGP75, and suddenly I realized that not all pistols were set up the same. I got to test the Steyr LP1 and suddenly I can hit the target paper. So I sold my Walter and ended up with a Steyr LP10. It was an old one (99) and I had Buck "modernized" it.

I still did not touch the sight, but at least it is now neutral in L/R/T/H. I can sort of aim now but still with great difficulty. The way I aimed was that, if the sight picture has no daylight left and right, then it is line up correctly and that I should shoot, If there is daylight but it is not balanced, then it is not aimed correctly. If there is daylight on both sides and they are equal, I shoot. I made tiny adjustment, in this case rear sight L/R, out of curiosity. My subsequent scores of the next three tournament are around 150.(.250). For the record I still cross fired ridiculous amount of shots to the point which the match official and my friends joking told me that they would need special card board boxes at the end of my lane and the neighboring lanes to protect the range. The match official actually was "coaching" me at one point with 1/3 of the match left. I finally know how to pull a trigger!

At that point I was fed up again. I have a standard winning pistol that everyone else has, I still shot poorly. The average score of the California championship this year is 432 (.720). John B. shot a 570 to win the title. I looked at the ranking in USA Shooting and everyone is high .800 to high .900. There are several .700 but they are veterans (seniors).

Hand eye coordination should not be a problem, otherwise I would not have trophies for my racing. Negotiating turns at high speed requires precision, plan well ahead, and commitment. You don't show up at the corner than make a decision. You set it up at least two turns ahead.

After the last PTO I began to wonder if it is my Steyr has a problem, as I had TWO cylinder failures just prior to the match on the way to the line. John B. was kind enough to test my LP10 and there was no problem at all. Then suddenly he turned to me and said "How can you possibly aim? Your front blade is so thick that you cannot see anything".

That was in the middle of April, some three months ago. I got some blades, changed them, open up the rear sight more, adjust the rear sight (acted counter against my initial education) L/R/T/H. After only two sessions I was already in the high 100s. I could see my sight, I don't need to twist around for the cant, and I can aim the pistol directly towards the target. My last shooting around that period, by the end of May, broke .500.

I spent the next two months or so working on the FWB65, purely for strength exercises and I did not touch my LP10 for almost one and a half months. Then I have to calibrate the LP1CP for my misses. Calibrate is the wrong word, set everything to neutral is the right word, plus purchasing the standard accessories, for example, hers did not come with the barrel weight. She was the one who has to adjust the sights.

I started shooting again last week, and now I am knocking on the door of 400 (.660). However I was not too happy, I have problem aiming my front sight WITHOUT the target became a blurring background. I also have strange groups: The pellets were all over the target while I have four straight inner 10s and close to 20 shots made at 9 and 10. I average one miss per practice match, and nowadays I consider it being me not being careful in seating the pellet, or examining it. I average 30/30 bull wise (that is 0-6 vs 7-10), but the 0-6 itself is also 50/50. 15 of them form groups, then 15 of them are fliers.


My questions are these:
1. I am at my early 40s, am I a slow learner, consider my experience in ANY projectile weapon is zero one year ago?
2. Do I hit the wall, and really should quit? Due to my disability and medication, I do have some shaky hands (and legs) sometimes. I counter that by grappling the grip and strengthening my arm as hard as possible. On a good day my hand will be at rest, on a bad day I may as well go home.
3. Do I just need further instruction, coaching and tips from colleagues, to help me out, perhaps I have bad posture or footwork? My footwork and posture is the same as Uwe Potteck, from his youtube video. Interestingly I also correspond with him.

I don't know whether I am over my head or not. I am planning to break .750 by October, and .800 sometimes in next spring, which will bring me back to the upper-middle portion of the pack of the California state championship competitors. At that point I will have around 1 year and a half of experience.

The true love I have in shooting is free pistol, but due to range fees and distance of the range from my home I cannot do it all the time. I am happy to shoot 60 points (.100) and I am also happy to shoot 150 (.250) It does not matter, I probably will keep doing it for fun.

As for AR, as soon as I shoot "OK" (hit the bull (4-10), not the bulls-eye) and I managed to hold the rifle consistently and securely I will quit. Misses will take over the rifle...actually she already has. I will only use it for practicing how to hold it ambidextrous, and to be able to consistently hold it correctly as a once in a while review exercise.

Anyway, my long whine is really about whether I am in too slow a pace, or rather have zero talent, or that my medication/illness shake makes me difficult to shoot accurately, thus renders improvement pointless.

I know a lot of you find me amusing or annoyed as a troll,. a lot of you educate me genuinely, especially Rover; a lot of you find my posts useful. But I need some genuine suggestion. I know that most of you describe the brick wall is around mid 500. Right now if I shoot non-nonchalantly I can easily get around 330 (.550.), if I were serious and do a simulated timed match I am only a few points under .700. I expect that I will break .700 before the last PTO of the year in August.

..but even then...so what?

I expect my misses to beat me within 2 months. She has learned how to shoot since 5, and she only had shot AP ONCE, without adjustment, barely knows the rules, does not know how the AP works, and promptly shot over .300. I fully expect her to beat me within a month of practice, and be in the .750 within 2 months. Without knowing anything about Air rifle, she shot it for the first time last night. 8s and 9s on the AR target.

I know I suck, but there has to be a reason, even if the reason means that I have hit my limit and my talent is zero.

Advice needed please. No joking. No trolling. I love you all

I'm sorry but this is going to be a short answer to a long question.

Do not expect to find an answer on a web forum.

You need to find an experienced coach who can watch you shooting and give you an HONEST opinion.

It might be that your disability is preventing you from progressing further, or it could just be bad technique.

People on here are generally very helpful and give advice freely. That is no good for your circumstances. You need a personal one-to-one appraisal.

The nice thing abut pistol shooting is, IMHO, that you don't need talent until you are quite a way up the ladder, and then it's mostly a mental thing. I've got almost none of that, and can still shoot up to 0.93 on good days, even in competition, as long as I stick to a level of competition where I'm comfortable. The shooting part itself is no problem. Some people "learn" it in tw weeks, some in two years, but those who stick with it, go their way. I know a guy who only started shooting in his late 50s and went on to shoot FP on national top level for years. My dad is well beyond 70 and still shoots > 0.90 in SP and AP.

From your description, hard to say where to start, but I'd ask somebody who knows how to watch you a bit, should get rid of the worst few habits pretty fast. There are a few, for sure. E.g. you don't need to see the target at all, except to know which one is yours. The rest is front sight and trigger work, and basic stability, body, arm, and WRIST. It's NOT about strength. It's not about speed. This is not tennis, and not racing. It's balance. It's like Bagger Vance's golf - the perfect shot is out there, you just need to find it. Read the threads here about that, instead of worrying about the equipment. Read Anatoli Piddubny's article on Pilk's site, they are excellent. Note that he does not talk about absolute strength. I even asked him abut that, directly, and he told me not to worry about strength. Dry fire, analyze, be really critical in practice. Enjoy the days, and shoot a lot, when it works well. Don't wory about bad days, and don't learn bad habits on those days, go for a beer instead. Just my five cents worth.

As everyone said, you need to get someone who knows how to shoot and coach to help out.

From your descriptions about sights, I have to ask. Are you trying to shoot with both eyes open or using an blinder on one eye? No the target should not and probably will never be in focus while you are shooting a shot. You should always be able to see lines of white on both sides of the front sight. Actually most people like them about as wide as the front sight itself.

Can you actually see the front sight, dust bunnies and all? If not, get some vision assitance and quit trying to see the target. It is a distraction put there to take points away from new shooters.

Remember, any wobble that keeps the barrel parallel to the targer is OK, go ahead and shoot the shot. Any think that makes the barrel create any angle to the target is BAD. Don't do that. How can you tell. The lines of white stay the same width with a wobble, they do not when you are changing the angle of of the gun (or the front sight goes above or below the rear sight).

Again, you are correct in the assumption that things should be better. Recognizing that is the first step. (Fortunately for this sport, there are not 11 others you need to get through :-))

Good Luck and check out some of the historical posts about shooting a good shot. There are some here between the hundreds and hundreds on which gun or pellet is better.

Cecil

I'm the opposite of you (I shoot rifle and have taken up short arms as a hobby) and when I first started shooting AP I was shooting at the AR targets aiming for the Sighters and just hoping to group them all on the paper. It must have taken a few times to get it to that point because for say a week I couldn't always hit the paper. My rifle coach came over and basically told me my follow through was crap and to shoot better I needed a longer follow through. I was bemused as it was the same follow through I used for rifle but went with it and suddenly all of the shots landed on the paper. It took me another 2 months or so to season my arm to being able to actually hold them inside an AP target and after another few weeks to a month they all were starting to be .500 or better with the occasional flyer which I could call.

Now for my AR/SBR story. I've been doing this for just under 2 years now. My first ever SBR match was 321 3x20. I was pissed, I knew kneeling was my weakest position and spent maybe 2 months straight working on it (I have a condition where my right knee is almost inflexible and when I get into kneeling it will stretch almost to the point of tearing) it took me literally 2 months to get all of my kneeling shots in the black. After that it took me another 3-4 months of fiddling with my position to get it to where I could call my shots. Today I'm shooting around 565 in 3x20 and am still climbing and still adjusting. Air rifle started out at a 289 in 40AR today it's about 385. I've hit the proverbial wall where it's all in my head now and there is nothing tougher than getting those 9.9s into 10.0s.

My point is to just stick with it. If you think you can't do it then you've already lost. Write down the method you are currently using (everything: sight settings, head position, foot position, glasses position, etc.) and then start playing with it, write down your goals, I've already written down my goals for this coming season and I'll be damned if I don't do it. Take pictures of your position or have someone else do it for you, it really does help you actually see any sort of errors. And write down what your best is and try to beat it, my best was set a week ago and I will hopefully beat it this coming week.

Also remember the 3 Ps of shooting, (Practice, Practice, Practice) I'm at the range maybe 3 hours a day 4 times a week (one of the luxuries of being on a collegiate team) but if you can practice at home/in the garage that's fine too. I actually practice in class sometimes (mentally do my shot sequence) believe it or not it helps.

Hopefully I didn't ramble too much ;)

One thing I do need to comment on is the front sight problem. First of all I close my dominant eye as I shoot with my non dominant. Second of all when I concentrate on the front sight, the back target is STILL very clear. Subsequently it looks as if the front sight and the target is of the same distance all printed on the target paper. I will work on the front sight adjustment (shorten my sight radius) and also wear my shooting glass (currently at +1.5) and see if it helps.

I have no problem in FP when it comes to sights. When I concentrate on front sight on FP, the target is no longer in focus.

Thanks for the advice so far. My major breakthrough in mid April were only two sentences by two people. One told me that my front sight is too wide and it is impossible to aim, another told me how to and when to start pulling the trigger. Three months later I have vastly improved from the past 10 months or so.

You might want to know that you've started with probably the most difficult discipline in the shooting world. So you are going to have a long learning curve, which is determined by age, physical condition, natural skills (?), vision, nervous quirks, kinesiology etc. etc. ad infinitum ad nauseam. As for coaches right now, I would just try to adapt as well as possible to your pistol. AP is a great place to start off and should be your only starting point, even before you drive yourself crazy with the FP. I mean this in a friendly spirit of IMHO good advice. Perhaps you could ask a fellow "experienced" FP and AP shooter ( from your club ) to give you a look over and watch your attempts. I am sure their critique would be most helpful as a starting point. I have taken 19 year old cadets and started them on AP & FP, and with the age factor and youth on their side, it would amaze me with their progress in 2 or more years. Asking questions here you have a very limited number of true AP & FP shooters who could possibly help you. These claims by various and sundry "Coaches" who guarantee you to shoot a 500 + in either discipline in 4-6 months is IMHO a lot of hot air and hooey. "Doc" The Crotchety Ole Coach"

I'm sure I could teach him using Marine Corps methods.

His ears would be ringing and the back of his head would be lumpy and sore.

He could write home to Mama.

As far as pistol shooting goes...

Miyagi say: "Don't close eye, never close eye. Use blinder and keep eyes open, but only one can see front sight."

You should not have to "copncentrate" on the front sight. Either use normal vision to see it naturally, or get lenses to the natural focus is at that distance. One problem with getting good lenses selected is our eyes are very good at accomodating whatever we are trying to do. Therefore there is a lot of "which is better, this one, or this one" when we are in the doc's office.

And FP is very hard to get going well if its the first pistol shooting one tries. Its just that there is probably missing the basic understanding and physical ability to keep the pistol / hand / sight picture under control enough to get a good shot. That has to be built up over time. Pleanty of muscles that are not normall used, trigger finger - eye coordination to get automated, learning what you need to see to get better. (Can you call every shot now to the clock and ring?) To put it another way, get to shooting 90's or above at 50 yds on a bullseye (conventional pistol target) with a .22 standard pistol. Should take about a year to so with good training technique and dedication. FP is a lot easier to do from that point.

Yes, I have a very basic opinion that most new shooter's problems come from the fact they cannot see what they need to see to get better. Keep looking at what the front sight does before, during and after the sear trips. The front sight will tell you what you doing.

Good Luck

Cecil

Just a wee note regarding the odd 'flier' being caused by failure to inspect pellets... No. Unless a pellet is missing part of the skirt, or has a hole right through it so it just falls out of the barrel, there's no way even the WORST MADE PELLET IN THE WORLD is going to miss the black if you shoot accurately at the 10. I've tried some seriously bad, cheap pellets, like the Crosman round-nosed things in a bulk carton or some Gamo things which were all bent and dented. Nothing was worse than a 2 ring error, if that. So if you're missing the paper when using a Steyr, it's all you.

My guess would be that the medication, whatever it is, might be harming your ability to concentrate through the shot process such that the sights might be wandering while you're focused on the trigger, or something like that. Missing the black gets kind of difficult after a year or so if you are following the basics. In my first six months I was all over the paper, and the odd 'twitch' was putting shots into the wall above my trap at home. It was embarrassing. But I learned what focus meant from pistol shooting. It's helped in my work, especially in finely detailed carving and inlay work, pistol training working much like any sort of deliberate meditative practice. It helps me see and then proceed to eliminate any and all distractions until I am ready to take the shot, even if that means putting the pistol down and going to the bench to get some job done that's bothering me. Once the mind is clear, shooting 10's doesn't seem all that difficult. Of course maintaining a clear, almost simple mind is one of the biggest challenges.

I dunno; plenty of simple minds around.

Seems a bit of a semantics sort of question. I was listening to an interview on the CBC last month with the actor John Malkovich where he was talking about this very thing. "I don't know of a person who's simple." Great interview by the way - you can watch it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73UToSsXw8k
There are certainly those who, as John says, are not 'interestingly complex', but even the most low-brow simpleton contains depths and subtleties which often surprise if one is truly attentive. And speaking of simplicity and Malkovich, check his performance in 'Of Mice And Men' - anything but simple.

But yeah, I get your drift Rover. And the societal will towards simplistic solutions and behaviors certainly seems overwhelming.

If you are enjoying yourself while shooting does it really matter how good you are? As long as you are safe on the range and stop crossfiring nobody else cares about your scores either. Everybody has different expectations, goals, abilities, learning curvr, etc. If you feel that you are improving and are pleased with that improvement and are having fun then keep shooting. But it does sound like you could use some basic knowledge of how to shoot and adjust your pistol. I'm sure there is somebody where you shoot that can help you with that.

Scott

Good answer, Gerard.

I'm a firm believer in "KISS." After all, shooting is nothing but aligning the sights and squeezing the trigger.

Several times I've had women say to me, "Why did you waste time talking to that loser."

I moved on to different women. But then again, I wanted some of those people to look at me with big sad eyes as I clubbed them like a baby seal.

I can't help but think that all the time spent typing could have been spent practicing.

If we took all your posts thus far and instead of typing you were dry firing at a wall, how much better would you be right now?

I understand your age may put you in the mindset of "this isn't a serious thing anyways, just a hobby." But pretend for a while that you had the dream of shooting in the Olympics. What would your training program look like?

Posting on targettalk, or practicing? (and as David mentioned, practicing with a coach)

Rover wrote:I'm sure I could teach him using Marine Corps methods.
His ears would be ringing and the back of his head would be lumpy and sore.
He could write home to Mama.

Sorry, that method would never work for me, including head lumpy and sore, and write home to Mama.

You don't want to know why either.

The reason why I can afford to post that much is simple. I have time. I am on disability. When I type I am bedridden. That is why you see I post in odd hours sometimes. Like now, 2am. I usually save enough energy and get out of bed for those practice time.

I practice 2 hours a day every day except take one day off per week. On rare occasions two days off. Trying to get NOT motivated to go downstairs and practice while your body is on fire is a pretty good excuse to decide not to go; but all I remember were those days that I raced with concussion and broken hand taking a corner and that made me thought if I could handle that pain, I could handle this one.
So half of the time I was firing while I am on fire. Anyway, enough of this; most people including most of you would just say I am making excuses using my health.

Remember I have to unlearn some habits that have been formed close to 9 months due to some misunderstanding. If I throw away that 9 months, then basically I jumped from .150 to .667 in two months.

The only reason why I care about shooting well in AP is that I want to help my FP. As I said, I love shooting FP whether I shoot extremely badly or extremely well. Shooting better in FP certainly makes it more fun.

Gerard wrote:Just a wee note regarding the odd 'flier' being caused by failure to inspect pellets... No.

I put my words wrongly, the correct term is I did not seat my pellet correctly, hence the flier. Hence I need to "inspect" from now on, make sure all of them are seated properly before closing the breech.

Unfortunately some of the medication may really has something to do with my shooting. Some days are good, some days are bad.

conradin wrote: Remember I have to unlearn some habits that have been formed close to 9 months due to some misunderstanding. If I throw away that 9 months, then basically I jumped from .150 to .667 in two months.

Scratch that one, I just PBed. Forking 3am in the morning with fibro pain and I still have to do my daily practice match. Blame that to addiction to shooting. Now I am over .720. It was .650 3 days earlier. Before that one .620.

Oh yes, I do confirm one thing, my hand DID shake. I am not happy with it. The question now is how much was it bad mechanics, and how much of it is pharmaceutical, because no doubt the latter has a part in it.

Sometimes I don't even know how I managed to play the organ...speaking of which I need to take a quick nap, load up on pills, and get ready for playing the service in a few hours in front of the archbishop and all the seminarians.

Hi Conradin,

Remember quality training is worth doing. Throwing lead down the range is at best exercise, at worst re-enforces bad habits. Quality not quantity. Basics, as you know, are clear site picture, smooth triggering while maintaining site picture, and follow through while maintaining site picture. The shot release just happens while you are looking at the sites - it is not waiting for the perfect site picture and then pulling the trigger. It all blends into one. Try to forget scores and percentages, try to shoot blank cards - just put shot after shot into blank paper - when you get control of sites and trigger the target is irrelevant.

And watch Laguna Seca GP later today - bit more exciting than free pistol.

McT