Hi All,
First post and a bit long, I'm afraid but I have run it past pilkguns first so please be gentle :) Nevertheless, apologies in advance... I'll try not to make it a random stream of consciousness, so a bit of background first.
Background
About 15 months ago we created an iPhone/iPad/iPod app to help shooters (of all disciplines) adjust their sights quickly and easily. The idea is that you create one or more "profiles" consisting of range, target that you are shooting and click setting adjustment for your sight. As you take a shot, you plot where it hits on a zoomable representation of the target and the app calculates the click adjustments you need to make - averaging shots if you wish, and even telling your the direction to turn the adjusters - handy for those sights that work in the opposite direction to normal :) The app currently includes 93 predefined targets (including all of the ISSF disciplines), with 24 click adjustments.
Of late we have received a few requests for pistol sight settings, and I also found someone reaching our site having searched for "air pistol sight adjustment". Having trawled across the web looking for some appropriate data, I came across "The TenP Files" on pilkguns.com... and it made me realise just how many holes we had with suitable click settings for air pistols/pistols/air rifles and even some smallbore rifles :( (Which is actually quite ironic, given that the app was born out of my frustration at failing to zero my own Anschutz Match 54 at a non-standard [18 yard!] range.)
To address this, earlier this week, we made a database update available, extending the number of click adjustments to include what we thought were the commonest likely missing adjustments for precision pistol/air pistol/rifle/air-rifle sights.
One thing that also came to light was how many ranges are used when specifying adjustment values (doubtless to match individual disciplines), hence: 10m, 20m, 25m, 50m & 100m (though currently the app only displays metric settings against as cm @ 100m.)
So, the reason for the post is twofold:
1. Have We Got it Covered?
Have we missed any of the commonest click setting adjustments? We already have the following equivalents:
mm @ 10m: 0.4, 0.5, 0.6, 1.0, 1.5, 2.0 (with a few others that are within a few % of exact)
mm @ 25m: 5, 7 (with 8.5/9mm within 3%)
mm @ 50m: 1.25, 2, 2.5, 10
mm @ 100m: 2, 3.2, 4, 6.4
2. Is It Something That You Would be Interested In?
Really, I'm unsure how this type of app would be received within the community. Clearly, it wouldn't be legal to use in a competition, but is it the sort of thing that you might find useful to get over the sighting-in chore (especially when changing ammunition/pellet type or batch)? We've had good reports from users with multiple (centrefire) rifles to sight-in, and it's also been used as a training aid to help instruct cadet target shooters.
Anyway, any opinions would be gratefully received, and sorry for the length of the missive.
Sight Adjustment - canvassing some opinions...
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
I'm afraid I'd have to say its of no use to me. Why ? Because people need to experiment and learn what works with their own gun and ammo and then write it down. That's how people learn about their guns and sights not by reading off a crib sheet. But hey that's just my opinion, others may find it invaluable.
Rob.
Rob.
Whether you write the sight adjustment details in a notebook or scorepad sheet as we have done for years or record them on a phone or electronic pad app. What is the difference? This is the "new world". (Notice I chose not to use the "i" prefix - that was intentional!)RobStubbs wrote:I'm afraid I'd have to say its of no use to me. Why ? Because people need to experiment and learn what works with their own gun and ammo and then write it down. That's how people learn about their guns and sights not by reading off a crib sheet. But hey that's just my opinion, others may find it invaluable.
Rob.
Also, is there any reason why such a system would be illegal in competition. Phones can be used as stopwatches for timing series. Why can't they be used as score and data recorders during competition? Is there a specific rule about this?
ISSF Rule 6.11.10 - Phones are specifically not allowed on the line during competition ... as well and any other device capable of receiving data, audio or video as they can be (and have been) used to "coach" remotely.jliston48 wrote:Also why would it be illegal in competition. Phones can be used as stopwatches for timing series. Why can't they be used as score and data recorders during competition? Is there a specific rule about this?
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KatoomDownUnder
Phones on the firing point
Actually ISSF rules forbid phones and similar sound producing devices from the firing point.
6.7.5.4 Only sound reducing devices (hearing protection) may be used. Radios, iPods, or any similar type of sound producing or communication systems are prohibited during competitions and
any training, except when they are used by competition officials.
And 6.11.10 dot point 5 as outlined above.
6.7.5.4 Only sound reducing devices (hearing protection) may be used. Radios, iPods, or any similar type of sound producing or communication systems are prohibited during competitions and
any training, except when they are used by competition officials.
And 6.11.10 dot point 5 as outlined above.
Not quite sure why you're discussing my comments rather than giving your own opinion on the OP's suggestion.jliston48 wrote:Whether you write the sight adjustment details in a notebook or scorepad sheet as we have done for years or record them on a phone or electronic pad app. What is the difference? This is the "new world". (Notice I chose not to use the "i" prefix - that was intentional!)RobStubbs wrote:I'm afraid I'd have to say its of no use to me. Why ? Because people need to experiment and learn what works with their own gun and ammo and then write it down. That's how people learn about their guns and sights not by reading off a crib sheet. But hey that's just my opinion, others may find it invaluable.
Rob.
Also, is there any reason why such a system would be illegal in competition. Phones can be used as stopwatches for timing series. Why can't they be used as score and data recorders during competition? Is there a specific rule about this?
Rob.
How about ipod playing one's favorite shooting video game background music?jhmartin wrote: ISSF Rule 6.11.10 - Phones are specifically not allowed on the line during competition ... as well and any other device capable of receiving data, audio or video as they can be (and have been) used to "coach" remotely.
Steyr LP10
To reply to the original question:
If I understand you correctly, you might want to add the click adjustment for Steyr LP10 and probably all other Steyr air pistols: one click equals 1.25 mm at 10 m.
If I understand you correctly, you might want to add the click adjustment for Steyr LP10 and probably all other Steyr air pistols: one click equals 1.25 mm at 10 m.
Off topic --> but no that is not allowed during the competition. Most matches here in the US by USA Shooting consider that time to be when you are called to the line. Players need to be shut off so that you can clearly hear range officer announcements and commands.conradin wrote:How about ipod playing one's favorite shooting video game background music?
...but if the phone function was turned "off", it can still be used as a stopwatch/timing device as well as a data recorder.jhmartin wrote:ISSF Rule 6.11.10 - Phones are specifically not allowed on the line during competition ... as well and any other device capable of receiving data, audio or video as they can be (and have been) used to "coach" remotely.jliston48 wrote:Also why would it be illegal in competition. Phones can be used as stopwatches for timing series. Why can't they be used as score and data recorders during competition? Is there a specific rule about this?
I assume that the app would need the capability of receiving data (ie. phone turned "on", thereby making it illegal by your definition.
If the data were stored in the phone, then I would see no problem (again, if the phone were "off" or in "Flight" mode).
Also, another thought: I have seen competitors recording scores and data during the match in their shooting diaries on the line. That document would also contain coaching material - ie. training notes and prompts, etc!
Because of the proliferation of mobile phones, pads and laptop computers, and the reliance by (mainly) young folk on these devices, there needs to be a Shooting Diary app for phones, pads and computers. This may also be another thing that may be attractive to young people in taking up the sport.
I note also that audio producing ear protectors are not allowed (but probably are, if they are turned "off') but electronic ear protectors (that react to the loud sound) are allowed.
Such a minefield of things to consider!
Also, Rob, I responded to your post because you suggested writing data down and I was pointing out the electronic alternative. Certainly no offence intended!
I use LP10 and she uses LP1CP.
I memorize both mine and her total maximum clicks (H/T/L/R) of our respective pistols, then memorize our individual click settings (H/T/L/R) along with what each click represents in 10M. We also memorize the width of the rear sight windows, by memorizing the number of maximum turns of the rear sight window screws, along with our individual choice of number of turns that we use.
Since both we use Steyr LP, essentially it is inter-changeable. In an emergency we can borrow each others', change the clicks and turn of the screws, then change the front sight width (she uses the standard, I use the slimmest). The only thing left at that point is the adjustment of the sight radius. I am at least two inches longer than her. We also can switch grip. Finally I use the four barrel weights, while she uses the single encompassing weight, so that is easy to switch.
Something you cannot really change without spending a lot of time; for example she uses single stage 575g, I use double 425/75g. While we can switch grip, the screws turns that determine the exact placement and cant of the grip is delicate and hard to memorize and we will not bother with it, especially the grip of the LP1CP is different from the LP10. At least we use the same grip weight, so that is not a factor.
Essentially we can exchange parts as many as possible, but it is impossible to be perfect, short of two exact LP-10 in the exact set up. Believe it or not, changing barrel can be very quick.
The most common adjustment after exchanging all the pistol and set it to your set up is to do a lot of sighting. I find myself still shooting sub 6, but it could be aiming at the 7 ring as opposed to 9. Or I have to cant in a different way, and adjust the cant, ended up shooting sub 5.
But then this is an emergency situation, you don't really have much of a choice, with the alternative being borrow someone Else's pistol with which you are absolutely not familiar, or DNS.
We also have the FWB65 as a backup, but at that point if we have to use it we merely would consider the match as a game, not serious at all. I think it is nice to mock those snobbish $3000PCP electronic trigger noob shooters with a 65. Double fun if I use Gamo pellets. But the truth is, unless you are Rover, you have little chance to be competitive with a 65.
I memorize both mine and her total maximum clicks (H/T/L/R) of our respective pistols, then memorize our individual click settings (H/T/L/R) along with what each click represents in 10M. We also memorize the width of the rear sight windows, by memorizing the number of maximum turns of the rear sight window screws, along with our individual choice of number of turns that we use.
Since both we use Steyr LP, essentially it is inter-changeable. In an emergency we can borrow each others', change the clicks and turn of the screws, then change the front sight width (she uses the standard, I use the slimmest). The only thing left at that point is the adjustment of the sight radius. I am at least two inches longer than her. We also can switch grip. Finally I use the four barrel weights, while she uses the single encompassing weight, so that is easy to switch.
Something you cannot really change without spending a lot of time; for example she uses single stage 575g, I use double 425/75g. While we can switch grip, the screws turns that determine the exact placement and cant of the grip is delicate and hard to memorize and we will not bother with it, especially the grip of the LP1CP is different from the LP10. At least we use the same grip weight, so that is not a factor.
Essentially we can exchange parts as many as possible, but it is impossible to be perfect, short of two exact LP-10 in the exact set up. Believe it or not, changing barrel can be very quick.
The most common adjustment after exchanging all the pistol and set it to your set up is to do a lot of sighting. I find myself still shooting sub 6, but it could be aiming at the 7 ring as opposed to 9. Or I have to cant in a different way, and adjust the cant, ended up shooting sub 5.
But then this is an emergency situation, you don't really have much of a choice, with the alternative being borrow someone Else's pistol with which you are absolutely not familiar, or DNS.
We also have the FWB65 as a backup, but at that point if we have to use it we merely would consider the match as a game, not serious at all. I think it is nice to mock those snobbish $3000PCP electronic trigger noob shooters with a 65. Double fun if I use Gamo pellets. But the truth is, unless you are Rover, you have little chance to be competitive with a 65.
The app isn't quite as straightforward as a diary. Based on the click settings, range and target that you have entered, it is actually calculating the click settings that you need to apply. So it's taking care of the things that conradin is remembering. So would that classify it as a training aid? I don't know.
From a rules perspective, it would certainly be possible to disable the possibility of communication, simply by putting a device into "airplane mode". However, I would think that would make competition more difficult to police than just a blanket restriction on electronic devices.
To make it a little easier to understand the context, I have attached a screen shot.
(Thanks Gerard and Ricardo for the settings.)
From a rules perspective, it would certainly be possible to disable the possibility of communication, simply by putting a device into "airplane mode". However, I would think that would make competition more difficult to police than just a blanket restriction on electronic devices.
To make it a little easier to understand the context, I have attached a screen shot.
(Thanks Gerard and Ricardo for the settings.)
- Attachments
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- image.jpg (24.24 KiB) Viewed 2975 times
Overall, the concept is great. The issue is, as you said ... policing it during a contest is the problem ...Apphelia wrote:From a rules perspective, it would certainly be possible to disable the possibility of communication, simply by putting a device into "airplane mode". However, I would think that would make competition more difficult to police than just a blanket restriction on electronic devices.
Now, personally, I teach my shooters to not use a "static" setting on their sights, unless they shoot a DEAD CENTER 10.9, I always have them move at least a click.
Most of my (junior) shooters are not experienced enough to pick up the patterns that develop after a few shots ... and juniors tend to not want to change things ... forcing them to get into the habit of moving the sights tends to (albeit slowly) get the group into the center.
We use the ORION program a lot and if the group center is within the 9 ring, I'm happy.