TargetTalk

I am starting this thread as a spin off from some comments made in a post of a fellow looking for a rifle coach. One poster noted the comment of one part time coach who noted that "No one wants to pay for coaching."

The premise behind this is that if coaches were paid a modest sum there would be more coaches.

This could get interesting:

'Dude

After the brief lead in, the idea that part time coaches should get some level of compensation has been bounced around before. The first I am aware of was probably 20 years ago Col. Bill Pullum noting that we as a nation did not have very many high level shooting coaches for this very reason, shooting coaches for the most part were not paid.

I have certainly run into this problem after a casual conversation at my local range,

Parent: "Gee, it sure would be great if you would coach my son/daughter."
Me: "We could look into it. I would charge $50 hr."
Parent: "Oh!, you would charge for your time?"
Me: "Yes, If I am going to give up my own recreation time I really need to get something for it."
Parent: "Oh, ...yeah."

The irony to this is that the subject son/daughter is usually standing there completely outfitted in the latest top of the line gear, most or all of it new yet the parent thinks I should give up part of my weekend to help them and get nothing in return.

As has been pointed out, other personal sports coaches can get paid for their time... why can't shooting coaches?

The other aspect to this is there are official NRA/USAS certified coaches and then there are just veteran shooters who may be willing to coach. Now, if you are going to be NRA/USAS certified there is a decent amount of administrative overhead (First Aid and CPR certifications) you have to deal with. That certainly should allow one to get some compensation. Note, I did not say make a living at it, just get some compensation.

OK, that is my little rant. What thoughts do others have to offer?

Cheers,
'Dude

Parents in my area certainly think that it is perfectly fine to pay coaches for youth swimming, tennis and soccer but seem to think that baseball, basketball and football youth coaches should work for nothing. Makes little sense.

Dude, Thanks for opening up a thread on the topic. I will add a few things here, I was trying to keep my comments short on the other thread to not hijack the topic.

First of all, I am new at this. My daughter started shooting precision almost a year ago, so my exposure to the sport is fairly limited.

I was fortunate to find the coach that is working with my daughter. I sought him out and talked with him about coaching. He told me what his hourly and daily rates are for his regular consulting business. Followed by the comment, if I take the time to coach your daughter, I am taking time away from my business, so I will need to charge my normal rate(s). I think he fully expected me to simply walk away. Instead, I said "OK, when can you start". That was a little over a year ago (we were still doing sporter then) and it was one of the best decisions I have made and some of the best spent money. My daughter is shooting at a very high level for an 8th grader with a year experience. Without the coaching we would still be bumping along wondering how in the world those other kids can shoot those scores.

We have become good friends over the year he has been coaching my daughter and have had several discussions about rifle shooting and coaching. He once commented to me, "even a local golf pro gets $100 an hour or more for one on one coaching, so does a tennis coach..... go hire a shotgun coach, you will pay $800 to $1000+ a day" "But take a world class rifle competitor turned coach and have him ask for $100 or $150 an hour and people think you are robbing them."

I have personally had several people ask me at matches about who coaches my daughter and if he would coach their kid. The next question is usually, "how much does he charge?" When I tell them, that is almost always the end of the discussion. Yep, parents will spring for that new $3,500 rifle, and the $3,000 air rifle, and the $2,000 suit..... etc Then, all the travel expenses to go to matches, but it sure is hard to bring ourselves to pay someone to teach us how to use all those expensive toys.

In just my short experience in the sport, I see a lot of kids who really want to shoot well and are willing to work at it. The problem is, they just don't know how, and there are so few to teach them.

I don't have the answers, all I have is, like "dude" a "rant". Maybe this thread and forum can be the catalyst to inspire someone out there to start a coaching business. If they are successful, there will be another, then another. The sport sure could use it!!

So..... I have a question for all those who are out there "lurking" on this site, trying to learn so you can teach your kid or learn to shoot better yourself.

ARE YOU WILLING TO PAY FOR GOOD COACHING? HOW MUCH?

Come on, check in, even if you never post. If there are a bunch who are willing to pay what good coaching is worth, there just might be someone out there who would start a coaching business....

Dude, thanks for posting this thread. For awhile I was hoping more of these types of threads pop up.

And rmarsh, thanks for chiming in a bit more on this and sharing how coaching has helped you and your daughter.

As an adult, I would pay 100-150 an hour for someone who is a registered coach and/or maybe a top competitor who is open to it. I would hope at this hourly rate, he/she would have the experience to troubleshoot problems and help the shooter make the corrective physical and mental changes. I'd also like to receive help developing a training regimen during my own range time, including what cross training that I would benefit from. I'd pay a lower hourly rate for maintenance for phone/skype stuff and scatt file review.


Since TT is an international site about shooting and we have alot of worldclass shooters that frequent here often too, I think this site could be a great place to archive a bunch of learning material(which in the form of forum discussion already exists, but something catalogued would be good) and maybe something like a coach database/listing. Maybe some announcements for clinics that are going on around the country and what not too.

Coaches should most certainly not be out of pocket and equally if coaching is their business or part of it then charging for coaching is fine. As mentioned people pay for coaching in all other sports. By charging though you are stating that you are providing a quality service. So you need to be suitably qualified and experienced and I would suggest you must be open about all of that. Equally costs have to discussed very early on.

I've taken the decision that for now I only ask for my out of pocket expenses to be covered when I coach. That does mean that I am out of pocket overall as I've spent thousands of pounds over the years attending courses and travelling to international competitions as a coach, but for me I've classed that as personal development.

So I think it's a very personal thing, the important thing to me though is to be 100% transparent and honest if you charge or not.

Rob.

I would have no problem paying for a coach at all. I have done this several time for trap shooting. Worth every nickel. A different slant on this is we are shooting because we love this sport. Why would we not want to pay for a coach that helps us improve?

Chip

I would.

Having seen the benefit getting coached, I easily see where it is worth the $. It is especially important for the beginner, to get a solid foundation to build upon.

If you are not a serious competitor, and from a practical limited finance point of view... I think the best is to work it out with the coach for a reasonable amount of coaching sessions to take you to where you want to go. This is full knowing that limited amount of coaching will probably not be as good as more coaching, but you have to do the best you can within your budget.

If you intend to compete, then it is in your best interest to get and pay for GOOD coaching. The further up the ladder you want to go, the more important a GOOD coach is. When you are fighting for every point, it is the little things that count. And that is when you need a good coach to help you find and fix the "little things."

I never gave this much thought because I work with a junior program more or less to “give back to the community” and of course this is out of pocket. For the kids that get more serious there are many occasions when more qualified and experienced shooters that will take some time out and help them but not on a regular training program.

Now you folks have me thinking that if you look at the annual cost of training and competing perhaps budgeting some coaching would be a wise move. In hind sight I think that sending kids to rifle camps in the past has been the best money spent.

One on one coaching is probably finically out of reach for us but bringing in a coach to the club to hold a “clinic” is something I will look into. As a matter of fact if there is someone here (reading the forum) that would be interested in teaching a clinic here in western Pa. send me a PM. FYI we have 12 shooter in the club 5 of them shot well enough this year to qualify and go to the JOs in Colorado.

I'm glad to see this thread starting to get some comments. Caveman has a good thought for someone out there who is an accomplished shooter but has not done any/much coaching. One on one coaching can be a little intimidating (for the coach) if he has not done much of it. Really so, if he/she (don't want to leave out our lady shooters) is getting paid top dollar for it.

Offering to pay a local accomplished shooter a nice fee for a Saturday clinic with several kids would be a great way to start. The cost is affordable split up between several parents, and the shooter turned coach could get a good feel for if it is something the want to pursue.

Ideally, if a shooter could spend time with a coach every week it would be great, but that is probably not realistic for most. We only see my daughter's coach every two to three months. It works out really well though. He is able to correct minor issues, teach a new or more advanced technique suitable to her current level, and we go work on them until next time. Someone mentioned the clinics and I think they are probably the best bang for the buck. However, if you can arrange it, a day or two with a real pro is invaluable! Even if you only do it once.

As a shooter I would be willing to pay for some coaching, and as a coach I would be willing to get paid. I help coach at the junior rifle program that I came out of as a way to give back, and also because I enjoy helping other shooters. I coach with two other coaches on Thursday nights, then on Sunday mostly by myself. Thursday night is for any kid basically, while Sunday's are for the more advanced kids. Occasionally I get asked about one on one coaching, but I'm expected to give up my time to coach their son or daughter for free. When I mention that it's about $40 in gas from my house to the range then back again, they just give me a blank stare and that's usually where the conversation ends. There's also some range rules about coaching and making money that would make it even more expensive, but it's hard to get people to understand that you want to at least break even.

At the club I used to shoot at, their USAS cert. jr coach let me shoot along with them on Saturday mornings, given there was enough extra space and knowing that the kids were his priority. I was very grateful for it since I learned a ton, even just watching him coach the kids. I ended up moving away for a job, but I believe he ended up letting adults in on the Saturday morning sessions for a fee. I don't know what the fee was, but I'm bummed I had to leave the place, because I would have liked to continue training with him and I would have been happy paying hourly fee which would have ultimately gone to help budget the jr team.

I think this would be a good idea for Jr coaches to think about since it isn't any more out of pocket, plus the funds can go to the jr team.

parents pay for dance, music, and driving lessons......

just saying

pmelchman

Having started this discussion, well no, I am lying when I say that, there were two other posters here that started this, I just made it into its own formal thread it is interesting to see the comments and some of the experiences of others. I note that no one has popped up and tried to support the idea that coaches should coach for free for the love of the sport.

I did find the statement from Col Pullum that I was referencing in my opening posts. This comes from the book "Successful Shooting" by Bill Pullum & Frank T. Hanenkrat, NRA Publications, 1981. The chapter on coaching (page 195 in my printing) opens In terms of a national marksmanship program, the U.S. today lacks a sufficient number of trained coaches with the ability, interest and means to develop shooters into world class competitors. a little further down the page A major reason for the shortage of coaches is that there are very few paid coaching positions in the civilian sector.

The thing I find interesting about those statements is that this book was published in 1981, while some things have changed, such as a national training center in Colorado Springs and a clear path for US shooters to take to get them to World Cup and Olympic competition that does not pretty much require going through the US Army Marksmanship Unit. There is still a heck of gap between the local club and either of those places.

Getting back to the second part of that quote, that a major reason for the shortage of coaches is that there are very few paid coaching positions. This gets to the whole realm of free market economies. If there is some benefit to doing something, past the warm and fuzzy of helping someone out there are going to be more people willing to do it. While quality and qualification would certainly be an issue I expect there would be lots more people interested in coaching if they could at the very least buy gas and groceries and perhaps take their spouse out to dinner at the end of day.

The price points are interesting, numbers of $100 and $150 were placed out there. When I have set my price of $50 (never any takers by the way) I was going by what I can get as a math (up to calculus and differential equations) and physics (classic and modern) tutor. People just can't seem to get their head wrapped around the idea that for the coach their time has value. Also I have noted that having to pay for something makes people pay better attention to what it going on. It punctuates the fact that this time has value.

Now, after having said all of this, I am not really sure how one starts to shift over to the idea that while shooting coaches do not necessarily expect to make a living at it they should expect compensation.

Following on that last point is something that has been addressed in the thread, the skill level of the coach: While this it just one story I did run into one member of the board at a local range who could not see the quality and capability difference in the coaching offered by an interested parent who had taken the class C coaches course but never fired a round in competition and myself 40 years of competitive smallbore experience, former junior olympian, bunch of gold, silver and bronze hardware in the dresser drawer etc. While like Rob Stubbs I would never expect to recoup for all the time and years I have put into the sport I would expect to at the very least not be out of pocket.

So after all of this, it is comforting to know that there are some people out there who are willing to pay for coaching and some coaches who are actually getting paid for doing it. I would just like to see a path where this goes from the exception to the norm.

Cheers,
'Dude

Please feel free to keep the comments rolling.

I have been lurking for a while, first time I had anything worth (maybe) adding to a discussion.

As a new parent/child in the sport, I would be willing to pay for coaching if the equipment was all furnished, even as some type of rental. I couldn't afford to buy all the equipment, ammo and then pay for coaching on top of it.

Look at dance, swimming, soccer, etc. Pay for coaching, a pair of shorts and some shoes or a swim cap and goggles. Minimal equipment to buy, so the cost of classes/practice seems reasonable.

Luckily, we have some great coaches, who donate their time to keep the club viable. None of them solicit outside coaching sessions from the students either. They give back to the kids because the love to do it (many have not had "kids" in decades). This is not to say that this is the way it should be, but it does keep new shooter involvement high, because ammo (pellets/rimfire) is the only expense involved in getting started.

Once you get a shooter into A/Exp/Mstr Class, and the drive and desire of the shooter is there, I could see having a fee schedule for practices. Otherwise, unless you were in an area with LOTS of shooters, I could see a club wither away because new shooters/parents would not want to pay.

I hope I don't sound disparaging to you coaches, my statements were not meant to be.

It's funny how some parents will pay for all the gear and then choke at the idea of paying for coaching. I'm much more willing to pay for coaching, particularly at an entry level, than to buy a bunch of equipment.

I have actually given up on having my kids shooting precision because there are no programs in my area. The closest is over 2 hours away, and I'm not willing to do that kind of driving twice a week. Without a program where my kids could try the rifles, the coats etc, I'm not willing to shell out the money for the sport. I was hoping I could make it happen and was willing to take a level 1 coaching class as well as other things, but there is no way I would spend the money for even a rifle without more of a support system. I became a 4H leader in hopes of starting a precision program, but that isn't something that would work in my area.

It is interesting to me to see all the equipment on the sale board being sold by parents who spent thousands of dollars and then their kids drop out of the sport.

My daughter was interested in alpine ski racing and due to where we live we were able to get her in a top notch program with a "locals scholarship", given skis and a race suit. She really enjoyed the program but decided that alpine racing wasn't for her. I only had to pay for the coaching which was completely worthwhile because it really improved her skiing.

Now she is a top state nordic skier, but she still has third tier race skis because I would rather spend the money on coaching, which will really improve her racing, than spend it on skis.

She does like to shoot though, so we've taken her to the biathlon range a few times and this summer she is going to Lake Placid for a biathlon camp. But I won't be buying a real biathlon rifle unless she is really commited to the sport.

The last two posts open up another important aspect to the discussion, at what point do we talk about coaching fees vs membership fees vs usage fees.

The parents who say "Before I buy so much as a box of cartridges, I would like to know if my child it going to take to this." are absolutely correct in their thinking, pre-teens and teens are pretty notorious for changing their minds with regard to what they like with the change of the tide, sure shooting looks cool and for many there is a "wow" factor to the smallbore rifles and air rifles but to gain proficiency, that takes work.

While the names change a bit most entry level programs have a title such as "Basic Marksmanship Program" or "Junior Shooting Program" and a basic course description reads something like: 4-6 week course teaching the fundamentals of firearm safety and basic marksmanship with introduction to XXXX qualification system and smallbore/air rifle competition. Equipment and ammunition are provided.

Now the unwritten subtext here is that this is usually a recruiting tool to get new members into a local junior shooting program. A bunch of years ago, when I took my basic marksmanship course part of the fees included membership in the club for a year. Sure, many kids will get their completion certificate and move on but others will stick around for a season or two or a lifetime.

There is usually no problem getting parents to pay a modest fee to a club for a basic intro course. They see a flat fee and it is clear the kids get to use equipment and burn ammunition and targets which all have tangible costs, especially the consumables. In the vein of this discussion, the instructors for the course should receive a modest sum from the sponsoring club for their efforts. Again, cover gas, a bag of groceries and maybe hamburger. Start right there getting parents used to the idea that there are labor costs, even if they are small and it might not come as such a shock later when a higher level coach expects to be paid for their time for individualized coaching.

While it is nice and commendable there are individuals willing to donate their time, and lots of it, free of charge, in the long run I am not sure they are really helping the smallbore shooting sports. This keeps any possible fee structure for coaching artificially depressed. Which leads back to the initial premise the sport might have more coaches if they could get some modest economic compensation for it.

Thanks,
'Dude

To add one more layer: The exchange of value is a critical aspect of human interactions of any sorts. I will argue that the payment for coaching is actually an important part of getting the most out of that coaching. As an aside, I will also make the case that the payment should come from the kid himself, or at least part of it. But that is another discuss for another time.

As long as something is viewed as free, it will not be valued. There are a number of ways an exchange of value can occur - it could be paying 200 dollars per hour, it could be sweeping up the range, it could be painting the coach's house. But it is of utmost importance to the student's progress that they do not see this as something for the nothing. Something for nothing is how you ruin people.

Mike

Agree with both of those sentiments. The J3 type shooters are like the intramural sports sponsored by the schools. Those kids that excel move on to city league, camps, individualized coaching - which has a cost. They do it because the like the sport and are good and the parents are usually willing to spend the $$$ because they see potential in the child.

Until I see a desire and willingness to put forth some effort into getting better, I am not shelling out any money for hardware...just ammo. Would I be willing to spend $50 a week at the club for the coaching they provide...hard to say if $200 a month would be feasible. One on one sure, but in a group setting, each kid isn't getting coached to the same level. Some are just there to practice, some need coaching (and some that need it don't get it during the club practices).

I greatly appreciate the time our coaches donate, because many of the kids couldn't participate if there was a weekly/monthly fee. Of course, that is life, and we are lucky, and when I can, I will help out doing other things. Our club survives by parent involvement - the coaches don't do anything but coach.

I am seeing many on this thread who are saying they would have no problem paying for quality coaching (if they could find a coach). The other theme revolves around the idea of shooters/coaches donating time at a local club to "give back to the sport".

Not that anyone really said they were........ I certainly do not see these two concepts as mutually exclusive. Without various youth shooting clubs the sport would shrink. Most clubs cannot afford to pay a coach any kind of a reasonable fee, so without those who are willing to donate their time the clubs would have no coaching. So, certainly the sport needs and appreciates those who are willing to donate time to teach at a local club.

However, VERY FEW local clubs have the good fortune of having a real pro as the coach who donates time. Some do, that is great for the club and and a really noble thing for the pro to do. For the rest of the high percentage of the clubs, the level of instruction can only get you so far and there are no easy answers as to where do we go from here.

As for starting out at a club with little or no really qualified coaching.... I understand both sides of that. Simply put, at the precision air rifle and precision smallbore level, this is an expensive sport. There are some creative ways to minimize that expense, but it is still expensive. For a parent of a kid just starting, it is natural to say, we are just going to spend a minimum of money on equipment and professional one on one coaching is out of the question. "If they (the kid) sticks with this and shows they really want to do this, in 2 or 3 years we will look into spending more money on good equipment and coaching."

The problem with this approach is that no one, especially a kid, likes getting their butt kicked by someone else younger and with less experience. When a kid does not have at least some level of success in a reasonable amount of time, you can be assured they will soon lose interest. Then the parent says, "well, he didn't stick with shooting long, I'm glad I didn't spend that money on a coach or that new Walther". Maybe if the money had been spent on the coach or air rifle, he would have stuck with it rather than quitting to go look for something else to be successful in.

No easy answers here. With any family or adult shooter there is simply a limit to how much they can afford. It is certainly true in this sport that you cannot buy success. You can buy the best rifle(s), suits, equipment and hire the best coaching, but if the shooter is not willing to put in the time and effort, it is just wasted money. Simply put, you can't buy 10's. On the other hand, if a shooter has good equipment, PLUS high quality coaching combined with dedication, that is a hard combination to beat.

In my opinion, and it is just that, my opinion......... Of the three things mentioned above, Equipment - Coaching - Dedication, the most important is coaching. Why? You can have $10,000 worth of gear and if you don't know how to use it, you will get beat by the 10 year old little girl next to you with a Crossman Challenger. If you have used or so, so equipment but really know how to use it, you can still do very well in many competitions. Winning (or at least doing well) is addictive. Early success leads to dedication. From my first years journey in this sport, I would say if you have 3 grand you can spend, spend half on some used equipment and the other half on some good coaching, you will be far better off than spending the entire amount on a top notch air rifle your kid don't know how to shoot. That's my 2 cents for what it is worth!