TargetTalk

Posted: **Mon May 13, 2013 2:24 pm**

Hi guys
Ive just taken delivery of our ammo order from Eley.Using Match and shooting prone.It has a speed of 1077fps which is the fastest that Ive seen.Early indication is that my rifle loves it so Ill be attempting to get more.Have others noticed any major differences when testing with speed variance?

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2013 1:53 am**

I thought my rifle liked the faster ammo, but I now think it was a fallacy. I think my ammo has ranged from 1038 to 1068 and it appears to make zero difference. I think the only way to find out for sure, is to batch test the different speeds, and I dont think even that is deffinative.

Rob.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2013 4:04 am**

I have three batches of RWS R50, 331, 332, and 333 M/s, they all shoot tight, and surprisingly if I mix them (not that you would for matches but I did as an experiment) they all group together.
I have been told by a relieable source that if you use a tube (which adds weight to the muzzle) the rifle becomes more speed sensitive, but as neither my wife or I use one I can't verify that.
Robin

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2013 7:20 am**

RobinC wrote:I have three batches of RWS R50, 331, 332, and 333 M/s, they all shoot tight, and surprisingly if I mix them (not that you would for matches but I did as an experiment) they all group together.
I have been told by a relieable source that if you use a tube (which adds weight to the muzzle) the rifle becomes more speed sensitive, but as neither my wife or I use one I can't verify that.
Robin

Robin, 2m/s is a very small MV spread. I think the OP was referring to a much larger variation in the nominal MV. I've seen Eley with MVs ranging from 103x to 107x fps.

The phenomenom with tubes is called positive compensation. It's where bullets leave the barrel at different points in it's vertical recoil, due to variation in speed. If the bullet speed and barrel motion coincide correctly, verticla spread on the target is reduced. Get it wrong, and it can be increased.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2013 8:57 am**

Quotes edited-----

Tim S wrote:
RobinC wrote:...
I have been told by a relieable source that if you use a tube (which adds weight to the muzzle) the rifle becomes more speed sensitive, but as neither my wife or I use one I can't verify that.
Robin
...
The phenomenom with tubes is called positive compensation. It's where bullets leave the barrel at different points in it's vertical recoil, due to variation in speed. If the bullet speed and barrel motion coincide correctly, verticla spread on the target is reduced. Get it wrong, and it can be increased.

I understand how this works w/o a tube (and may change the exit point with current ammo), but I don't understand how the tube would make it more sensitive overall ... wouldn't your goal then to be to find an ammo that worked with the "new" barrel charactistics after the tube is installed?

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2013 12:25 pm**

jhmartin wrote: I understand how this works w/o a tube (and may change the exit point with current ammo), but I don't understand how the tube would make it more sensitive overall ... wouldn't your goal then to be to find an ammo that worked with the "new" barrel charactistics after the tube is installed?

The extra weight affects the movement of the barrel*. Although I think it would be more true to say that adding a tube can change the harmonics of the barrel, maybe for the better, but maybe for the worse, rather than more sensitive.

*Adding a bayonet has a similar effect, enough that the British army taught soldiers to aim off.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2013 12:28 pm**

Joel, I have been reading a bunch of stuff on barrel tuners lately. I guess that makes me an expert! ;)

Most (maybe all) the benchrest shooters use tuners. They work by adding weight to the end of the barrel to "tune" the barrel so the node where the barrel has the least movement is at the muzzle. (very much an oversimplification of the science here) From my understanding, most of the error the tuner tunes out is in the vertical dispersion of the group.

What does that have to do with a bloop tube? Well, a tube adds weight to the end of the barrel which changes it's vibration node. Again, from reading not experience (yet!), if you put a tuner on a barrel and have the weight wrong you can make the barrel shoot worse than without the tuner, maybe much worse.

I could see how a bloop tube, depending on the barrel diameter, length and weight of the tube, etc., could have a detrimental effect on accuracy. This would most likely be in the vertical axis.

As they say........ "knowledge is power", or maybe I fall into the other category, "a little knowledge can be dangerous!"

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2013 7:32 pm**

Very interesting replies and the conversation has diverted into another topic I was interested in exploring when the money tree had recovered a little,lol
Is a tuner worth its money or is it a way of manufacturers plying their gimmickry to the unsuspecting....
Last time I checked Sergei wasn't using one...but Id be interested in educated thoughts.
Im not at the 590 end of the score board but do believe in giving myself every advantage if there is one to be had
Perhaps Mr Beesting or Mr Starik would be interested in my valued opinion and they would send me one for evaluation.Yes great plan!

Thanks in advance

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2013 9:27 pm**

dontshootcritters, I did not intend to divert your thread to a discussion on tuners, but since you expressed an interest I will make one last comment....

From what I understand from reading and talking to competitors and gunsmiths who are in the rimfire benchrest community: If you are not using a tuner, you are not winning. When I was at the Eley test range a few months ago they had a rifle with a tuner they were testing. Dan pretty much confirmed that within the benchrest community, everyone who is winning is using a tuner. He said there is no doubt they work. I guess he would know as he is testing rifles and ammo pretty much everyday!

The tuner craze was started by Bill Calfee some years ago, and has become pretty much universal in benchrest. That group has transitioned to smaller diameter barrels in the .750 to .850 range with a tuner. The smaller barrel requires less weight in the tuner to "tune" the barrel.

There have been a few prone shooters using tuners, but it has not been widely adopted by position shooters.... yet. I have asked several people about that and have not really gotten a satisfactory answer. Too heavy, don't work, not worth the effort....... Maybe so, but the BR guys have proven they improve accuracy. I did have one position rifle gunsmith tell me that the tuners can be very particular and require minor adjustments from one day to next for ultimate accuracy. This is due to changes in temperature, and other environmental conditions. I will admit, that answer does make sense. Do they work good enough to be of use for position shooters? Time will tell.

I have a new rifle in (for my daughter, she is the shooter, not me) that was built by a well known rimfire benchrest smith. He built the rifle for a tuner. I have a tube/tuner on order from BeeSting, should have it in the next few days. The rifle, a model 54 action on a Precise stock was fitted with a 24" Bench Mark barrel, .850" dia. The rifle shoots great without the tuner, I am really curious to see what effect the tuner will have.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2013 10:43 pm**

IMO tuners are too complicated and have too small of an effect on position shooting to make much difference in the big picture. The best rifle I have ever seen was able to group inside of 10.6 without a tuner on it, and on that note I have yet to see a rifle enter a WCF with one on it. Even the former WR set by Debevec was done using an "old" rifle and post sights. Even when I was in Benning this past year the AMU discussed tuners and they found that for the position shooter they did not provide a significant enough improvement to performance to warrant their implement on the team. I'm not convinced they're the answer to better scores and would rather use the time to practice and develop a better hold.

Posted: **Wed May 15, 2013 2:01 am**

bpscCheney wrote:IMO tuners are too complicated ... I have yet to see a rifle enter a WCF with one on it. Even the former WR set by Debevec was done using an "old" rifle.

Then you have not been looking very hard. Eric Uptagrafft has won three World Cup silver and one bronze medals with his, plus a World Cup Final silver. Guy Starik took silver in Belgrade with his own, and Vebjorn Berg of Norway used a Starik tuner to take the silver in the World Cup Final later that year. Jason Parker won the 3x40 World Cup final with an Upta tuner. I may have forgotten some.

Yes it's true that Martynon doesn't use one and has dominated the prone scene. But look at him, he hasn't changed any of his kit for years, and why would he given his scores.

Posted: **Wed May 15, 2013 2:50 am**

I was quite keen on the idea of a Bee Sting but a good friend and top class shooter here has said that they are very hard to keep clean as they step up/down from the end of the barrelI was thinking about the earlier post before Tims and yes obviously they are in use with top end shooters.This then brings me back to an earlier question.Are they really only for the very top of the bunch where a single point can be the difference between winning and that other position called second which no one likes or remembers!
I shoot a Bleiker Challenger if that is worthy of mention
I may just get Sergei over for a training session instead!

Posted: **Wed May 15, 2013 3:41 am**

I was told by a prominent Olympic shooter who is also a builder and supplier of tubes that UNLESS you had the time and money to batch test ammo and be exact on your tuner set up then the only advantage is an extended sight line and they are likely to cause more problems than they solve. If you have the time to do extensive batch tests then you will get advantages.

Posted: **Wed May 15, 2013 5:58 am**

dontshootcritters wrote:I was quite keen on the idea of a Bee Sting but a good friend and top class shooter here has said that they are very hard to keep clean as they step up/down from the end of the barrel

Unless the Bee Sting is an unusual design, which it doesn't look to be, then it should be no harder to clean than any other extension tube. I use a rag on a shotgun rod, but others use shotgun bore snakes, or just a length of dowel. As for cleaning the muzzle, it's only a problem if you leave the clamping collar on the barrel and have very fat fingers.

Posted: **Wed May 15, 2013 2:45 pm**

Tim S wrote:Then you have not been looking very hard. Eric Uptagrafft has won three World Cup silver and one bronze medals with his, plus a World Cup Final silver. Guy Starik took silver in Belgrade with his own, and Vebjorn Berg of Norway used a Starik tuner to take the silver in the World Cup Final later that year. Jason Parker won the 3x40 World Cup final with an Upta tuner. I may have forgotten some.

Ah, derp, I shouldn't have written him off so quickly but my point was that a lot of world records have been set without the use of tuners. Martynov has shot 4 600s without one. I still believe the amount of effort required to properly set up a tuner could better be used to practice, granted I'm not a world class position shooter.

Posted: **Wed May 15, 2013 6:55 pm**

If Im not mistaken "The Man " has more than 4 600's

Posted: **Wed May 15, 2013 7:24 pm**

Martynov has six 600's under his belt.
Awesome.

Clarence

Posted: **Thu May 16, 2013 2:11 am**

He actually has eight. In reverse order:
London 2012 Olympics,
Fort Benning 2011 World Cup (qualification),
Munich 2010 World Cup Final,
Guangzhou 2006 World Cup,
Munich 2005 World Cup Final,
Munich 2000 World Cup,
Buenos Aires 1998 World Cup,
Munich 1997 World Cup

These were only those that counted as World Records. I suspect that there are many more shot back in Belarus.

Posted: **Thu May 16, 2013 8:39 am**

dontshootcritters wrote:I was quite keen on the idea of a Bee Sting but a good friend and top class shooter here has said that they are very hard to keep clean as they step up/down from the end of the barrel

We have been using one for about a year now on my daughter's rifle. It is the non-tuner model, exactly the same inside just no tuner.

I use a bottle brush about 12" long. The brush is just a little larger than the inside of the tube. Get it in the sink, put a little dish soap on the brush, work the brush back and forth a few times with a some warm water running through....... Takes about a 5 min for the entire process!

Posted: **Fri May 17, 2013 1:03 pm**

Dear friends,
In my experience,which is more than 8 times at Eley range in Birmingham,and many more times in Israel with rifles of all our national team,I can tell you that over 90% of rifles will shoot better with a bloop tube than without it.
Usually,any weight(100-350gr.)in front of the muzzle will make your rifle shoot better. To get positive compensation you should use a rig which recoils up. Tuners can make it even better if you know what you are doing.
Most of the good prone shooters these days use bloop tubes.
More later...
Guy

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