TargetTalk

I am starting this thread to see some real test results from other competitors out there; I would like to see what results your rifle has achieved, be it a Bench Rest Rig or a Position Rifle.

My Hope in starting this thread is that we can produce a number of results from various rifles and ammunition manufactures, so that any individual (myself included) can know what to expect from testing a rifle. I have heard of rifles that shoot 13.4mm groups for 40 shots and that is wonderful. However, I do not think that everyone will achieve a group that precise. Recently (results below) my rifle shot groups that ranged from 11.4-19+mm in size (10 shot), these same groups were around 17-20+ mm after 40 shots.

My goal is to answer these questions:
What is poor?
what is average?
what is above average?

So if you can, please share your results, so we may compile such a list (With Pictures) to answer these questions.

Similar posts include:
http://www.targetshooting.co.nz/ubbthre ... l#Post9963
http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php ... sc&start=0

Thanks in advance,
Cameron K

My FWB 2602 Results:

Results from another competitor; lot numbers hidden:
Anschutz with Aftermarket barrel.

Results from Lapua:





Now I will admit there are a few things that make my test at Lapua unfair to the results; first there is no consecutive 40 shot groups, i feel this one of the more important features I received at eley. The method of testing is not the same, it seems to me there should be an industry standard. however i was responsible for the incomplete results. if i had take the time to shoot larger goups i would of been happier, rather I only shot till I saw that the group was going to be larger then I would want. The rifle was also not cleaned before the lots of eley were tested, this would change the eley results. As seen above.
Another disadvantage I gave my Lapua results is that I did not test anything higher then Center X, yet if you are on a budget this could be helpfull to find better lots of SK. When I go back I will test the better ammunition like Midas Plus or Xact.

For the record:
From my experience both locations have superb service I am not saying one is better than the other, I only wish to share so that other shooters will share there results.

I've now tested with Lapua and their technicians in Ireland for the past two years, and have found from talking to them that they think twenty shots will give you a pretty solid idea of how the ammunition will shoot. If you shoot forty or fifty or a hundred, sooner or later there will be a flier, and I think that seems to be the case regardless of what you get or how high up the food chain you go. If it shows up in ten or twenty shots, but the rest of the group is tight, round and forms nicely (each shot overlapping the previous one), they feel that's a good indicator of how the ammunition will shoot, and fliers are just fliers. My own experience has borne this out as well, to the extent that I can trust my shooting to reveal anything. This year, I chose a lot that had a flier which strayed outside the group (10.2ish) but the rest of the group was round and about 13.9mm for twenty shots. My results have been just fine with it and I haven't noticed any fliers I can attribute to the ammo after the first thousand rounds. Similarly, from your Eley test results, the groups of 14.3mm and 17.4mm would be very difficult to choose from in my view. When the vast majority of the ammo shoots round, small groups, and there's only one flier in twenty or forty rounds, that's not indicative of the ammunition not suiting the barrel.

Very interesting stuff, thanks for taking the time to post it. If you don't mind I have a few questions for you:

How does one go about getting this done?

Do the Lapua/Eley techs do all of the testing, or do you do it? If they do it, are they willing/able to test a rifle without you? I am in MN, so getting down to either facility would not be easy, but shipping my rifle down might be.

How much does something like this cost to do?

Thanks in advance for any further info.

Regards,
Erik

Erud wrote:Very interesting stuff, thanks for taking the time to post it. If you don't mind I have a few questions for you:

How does one go about getting this done?

To have this accomplished you would need to contact either Dan Killough (Eley) or Darrell Stettimeier (Lapua)
here is there contact information:

Lapua
Darrell Stettimeier
480-626-8648

Eley
Dan Killough
325-754-5771
http://www.killoughshootingsports.com/

Erud wrote:Do the Lapua/Eley techs do all of the testing, or do you do it? If they do it, are they willing/able to test a rifle without you? I am in MN, so getting down to either facility would not be easy, but shipping my rifle down might be.

In the Eley example that I posted I shipped my rifle from California to Texas and Dan Killough used the recommended Eley testing procedure. I also believe that Darrell is willing to accommodate shipping, but you would need to check. It would be best to contact Darrell and/or Dan for better details on their testing procedures, shipping instructions, and cost information.

Erud wrote:How much does something like this cost to do?

This depends, in my Eley example I Payed $70 shipping both ways plus a $45 range fee. I would venture to guess you could spend upwards of $185. Both locations currently have a deal that if you purchase a set quantity they waive the testing fee.

Lapua would be around the same price for testing.

Erud wrote:Thanks in advance for any further info.

Regards,
Erik

You are welcome,
Sincerely,
Cameron K

Dave IRL wrote:I've now tested with Lapua and their technicians in Ireland for the past two years, and have found from talking to them that they think twenty shots will give you a pretty solid idea of how the ammunition will shoot. If you shoot forty or fifty or a hundred, sooner or later there will be a flier, and I think that seems to be the case regardless of what you get or how high up the food chain you go. If it shows up in ten or twenty shots, but the rest of the group is tight, round and forms nicely (each shot overlapping the previous one), they feel that's a good indicator of how the ammunition will shoot, and fliers are just fliers. My own experience has borne this out as well, to the extent that I can trust my shooting to reveal anything. This year, I chose a lot that had a flier which strayed outside the group (10.2ish) but the rest of the group was round and about 13.9mm for twenty shots. My results have been just fine with it and I haven't noticed any fliers I can attribute to the ammo after the first thousand rounds. Similarly, from your Eley test results, the groups of 14.3mm and 17.4mm would be very difficult to choose from in my view. When the vast majority of the ammo shoots round, small groups, and there's only one flier in twenty or forty rounds, that's not indicative of the ammunition not suiting the barrel.

Dave,

I have to agree with you on most parts, but i would like to point out that the groups you are talking about were not from my rifle. They are from a friend of mine and are only up as an example as to what a rifle can accomplish. this particular rifle is a round action Anschutz with an aftermarket barrel.

For myself; I have selected both lot 1457 a 17.1mm group and 3381 a 18.3mm group, with a few boxes of these I will do some shoulder testing and see if there is a difference in my scores, compared to my current ammunition Lot 4138, 4145, 1171, all of which are 20mm or greater.

With the data I have accumulated so far I have determined an average rifle will shoot an 18mm group for 40 shots (outside to outside) and that 15-16 is an ideal goal. But i need more test results to confirm.

Sincerely,
Cameron K

I think it's worth remembering though that when you're shooting, you might put a click or two in the opposite direction if you notice a couple of shots in a row in one direction or another, so the overall size over forty shots is worth less to me than the size of each consecutive ten shots, which would be much tighter in general, and the necessity that each shot overlap the previous one to as large an extent as possible. Lapua don't have an aggregate group size measurement, only those for individual ten shot groups, which seems to indicate to me that they also feel that the shooter's tendency to make small adjustments on the fly would detract from the significance of an overall group measurement for forty shots. on those Eley test reports, I'd want to see the overall group, then each consecutive ten shots that compiled it, and how they shaped and formed.

Who would be dumb enough to make sight adjustments when shooting groups?

I doubt that they shoot the tests off a bench at Lapua.

Rover wrote:Who would be dumb enough to make sight adjustments when shooting groups?

I doubt that they shoot the tests off a bench at Lapua.

From what I saw at Lapua they have one rifle rest with a couple attachments, and they make their own attachments for other rifle actions, I know he can test both Anschutz actions and he has a barrel clamp. There were some others but I am not familiar enough with what they were.

Almost forgot, there is also an attachment to test the rifle from the stock.

Rover wrote:Who would be dumb enough to make sight adjustments when shooting groups?

I doubt that they shoot the tests off a bench at Lapua.

Any good bulls eye shooter. You not only have to shoot groups, but have to center the group or shade the group to one side or the other to protect for wind conditions.
Ed

Rover wrote:Who would be dumb enough to make sight adjustments when shooting groups?

I doubt that they shoot the tests off a bench at Lapua.

Rover,

I think Dave meant making adjustment to keep the group centred when shooting for score. As far as I'm aware Lapua test from a recoil vice, so sight adjustment is not necessary then.

Rover wrote:Who would be dumb enough to make sight adjustments when shooting groups?

I doubt that they shoot the tests off a bench at Lapua.

I think the "when you're shooting" part made it perfectly clear that I wasn't talking about during the testing procedure, but during the day to day shooting you're testing for, hence my comments on what's significant when selecting ammunition.

I guess you threw me on that one because we were talking about Lapua ammo testing in a buried tunnel.

Rover wrote:I guess you threw me on that one because we were talking about Lapua ammo testing in a buried tunnel.

And I was discussing their methodology and the motivation behind it, including the difference between how they measure and examine groups and how Eley do it, which is again, quite clear. There was never any implication that the rifle or its sights would be adjusted during the testing procedure.

Just picking this thread back up again. Cam, on the Lapua test, I gather what the 'Dmax' value is, but what does DHH stand for? And you mention that you had not tested the ammo as extensively as the Tenex. Would the guys at Lapua allow you to shoot 40 shot groups?

I need to get my hands on some match ammo and I'll be preparing to do what you did.

adrianS wrote:Just picking this thread back up again. Cam, on the Lapua test, I gather what the 'Dmax' value is, but what does DHH stand for? And you mention that you had not tested the ammo as extensively as the Tenex. Would the guys at Lapua allow you to shoot 40 shot groups?

I need to get my hands on some match ammo and I'll be preparing to do what you did.

Adrain,

I'm afraid I can not answer either question, you will have to call and speak with Darrell, when you find out about what DHh is please let me know.

Hmm, that DHH is interesting, it doesn't appear on my testing output:



I tested at the same time Dave did above. Here are some photos of the temporary testing range used:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 5487_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 2948_o.jpg

Here is another Lapua test, did not scan the 100 yd. Lapua also gives the group size at 100 which for most of us is not important, but to some it is. Darrel very easy to work with and they test with rifle in the stock. Tested some that after 5 shots could tell was no good and quit after 5.

cmj wrote:Here is another Lapua test, did not scan the 100 yd. Lapua also gives the group size at 100 which for most of us is not important, but to some it is. Darrel very easy to work with and they test with rifle in the stock. Tested some that after 5 shots could tell was no good and quit after 5.

CMJ,

What are the specs on your rifle? is it an Anschutz action with factory barrel? round or square action? I would like to know for the Excel spread sheet I am making. I am collecting as much data as possible.


Thanks,
Cameron