Indicators: Dots vs. Iron sights

[motorcycle_dan]

Just recently broke 2600 for a 2nd time. As a personal goal set some time ago I want to go old school and break 2600 with iron sights. It was done many times back in the 70's so I know it is possible. With that as my new goal, I need to start working a plan that pushes me through that process.

While shooting with a dot, I use "indicators" that let me know the shot will be an X.
Some of my indicators include:
Where the grip bites my palm,
Where the right edge of the trigger rubs my trigger finger
Eyes looking and focused down range
As I roll the pistol vertical and bring it down to the target
I see the aiming black come into the dot tube from 6:00 position
I see the dot come into the tube from 1:00 position.
I have the dot as dull as possible (position 1 indoor, 2 or 3 outdoor)
The dot settles about 5:00 position half way between edge of black and X
My squeeze drives the red shadow toward the X
Recoil, reset, repeat.
All of these are minor check points that let me know it is another X.
During slow fire, any failed indicator will cause a reset and reshoot.
The dot coming into view from another position
Top corner of finger crease not working the side of the trigger.

Okay, how do I find similar indicators when my eyes are focused on the front sight?
Do I always focus on the front sight?
Or focus on the target until presenting pistol to target then shift focus to sight. What about sustained fire. The turning target tends to draw my focus down range. I want to keep it on sight alignment.
I need little tihings to watch for, tid bits of gathered info to let me know I’m on track to shoot another X.

If it matters I’m shooting deep sub-6 sight picture.
I posted a similar comment on bullseye-l list
I think there are many more iron sight shooters here.
Thoughts and comments are appreciated.

[John C]

Dan;

That is a great write-up of the shot process. I especially like your concept of indicators. I need to do better on that, myself.

I don't have anything to add from the perspective of an iron sight shooter. But as I get a little bit older, I definitely see dot sights in my future. I am bookmarking this post as reference.

Thanks,

-John

[john bickar]

break 2600 with iron sights. It was done many times back in the 70's

It's been done many times in the 2000s and 2010s, too :)

And 2610, and 2620, and 2630...

I'll have more to say on this, but in the meantime read BEA's comments in this thread, especially the ones about "critical vision."

[john bickar]

Let me say first that sights are secondary to trigger control in bullseye pistol. First and foremost, you need to either:

1. Have the trigger squeeze be completely automatic (subconscious), or
2. Be fully focused on the trigger squeeze, and be fully committed to it, using it to "drive" the front sight

Which of those applies depends on whether you are a "sights" shooter (a) or a "trigger" shooter (b), and I'm guessing you know that by now.

That said,

Some of my indicators include:
Where the grip bites my palm,
Where the right edge of the trigger rubs my trigger finger
Eyes looking and focused down range
As I roll the pistol vertical and bring it down to the target
I see the aiming black come into the dot tube from 6:00 position
I see the dot come into the tube from 1:00 position.
I have the dot as dull as possible (position 1 indoor, 2 or 3 outdoor)
The dot settles about 5:00 position half way between edge of black and X
My squeeze drives the red shadow toward the X
Recoil, reset, repeat.
All of these are minor check points that let me know it is another X.
During slow fire, any failed indicator will cause a reset and reshoot.
The dot coming into view from another position
Top corner of finger crease not working the side of the trigger.

I think you can replace "dot" with "front sight" with these and be good, or at least have a good starting point. (BTW, this is quite a detailed shot plan, which is good, but I hope you have internalized all of these steps and are not consciously thinking of them on each shot. If the latter, you must have a brain the size of Marvin the Paranoid Android's.)

Okay, how do I find similar indicators when my eyes are focused on the front sight?
Do I always focus on the front sight?
Or focus on the target until presenting pistol to target then shift focus to sight.

I "walk" my focus up my arm, to the rear sight, and then to the front sight. I have a + diopter prescription lens for my shooting eye, so I physically cannot focus on the target.

What about sustained fire. The turning target tends to draw my focus down range. I want to keep it on sight alignment.

Right before the target edges, I stare hard at the aiming point (center for me). Then when the target edges, I pick a spot on the edge of the frame/target, and that's where I point the sights when I pick the gun up. Visual and mental focus always is on the front sight. And I watch the front sight up into recoil, regain focus on it as soon as I can, and start trigger movement as I come back into the target. How much trigger I take up during recoil is variable, from .22 to hardball :)

One other thing to be aware of in shooting iron sights vs. a dot over the course of a one-day 2700 is fatigue. You really need to train to have the physical and mental endurance to have the same "critical vision" at 2PM during .45 rapid fire as you did at 8:30 during .22 slow fire.

[motorcycle_dan]

Couple of people alluded to the excess indicators in the process. Very cluttered and all.
Well yes it is, but to me, it is more of a familiar song. Anywhere in the process I know the lyrics. I can also detect a sour note during the song. Before I put it all together I was just sort of humming along then trying to sing the chorus. Sometimes I could pull it off, others not so much and I did not understand why.
John, you alluded to taking up trigger slack during recoil. I can't do that. I hold the trigger back until both the dot and the aiming black are in the tube. Reset and squeeze is one mental process. The reason I do it this way is because if I reset the trigger in recoil, I could not control the lower fingers from relaxing at the same time. I would relax my grip while resetting the sear. Many times it would cause my grip to shift. Now I reset and squeeze near the aiming black and it does not relax my grip.
Had a friend over last night and we had a pistol cleaning party then the Dot Removal Ceremony. Not a dry eye in the house....

[GunRunner]

I "walk" my focus up my arm, to the rear sight, and then to the front sight. I have a + diopter prescription lens for my shooting eye, so I physically cannot focus on the target.

Could you tell us more about what power diopter is needed, could this amount be added to ones current prescription for the aiming eye?

[Chris]

Dan,

For me when shooting irons I perform best when I have the critical focus on the front sight. Think of it like superman using laser eyes to burn a hole in the front sight. After 60 shots of free pistol I am spent.

GunRunner,

The best advise is to read this Dr. Norman Wong article.

For me with no prescription +.5 worked great for years.

[trulyapostolic]

While shooting with a dot, I use "indicators" that let me know the shot will be an
I see the dot come into the tube from 1:00 position.
I have the dot as dull as possible (position 1 indoor, 2 or 3 outdoor)
The dot settles about 5:00 position half way between edge of black and X
My squeeze drives the red shadow toward the X

Thank you for the excellent description on what a red dot shooter I'd supposed to look at, the target!

[Isabel1130]

While shooting with a dot, I use "indicators" that let me know the shot will be an
I see the dot come into the tube from 1:00 position.
I have the dot as dull as possible (position 1 indoor, 2 or 3 outdoor)
The dot settles about 5:00 position half way between edge of black and X
My squeeze drives the red shadow toward the X

Thank you for the excellent description on what a red dot shooter I'd supposed to look at, the target!

Not to be too trite here, and I am not a 2600 shooter like the incredibly talented Mr. Dan Pauley, (at least not yet) but in my opinion, you can shoot well and look at any damn thing you want with a dot,

as long as you DO NOT let what you see affect your smooth continuous pull of the trigger OR change your grip in any way on the gun.

[motorcycle_dan]

talented Mr. Dan Pauley,

My 2600 goal was set long before I broke 2500. Each person who is willing to set goals and work toward achieving them can do it. I just enjoy shooting competition. The only one you ever compete against is yourself. I saw some old school shooters doing things back in the 70's and 80's with iron sights and internally that was my goal. I wanted to be "that guy" who can take a 1911 to master level with the least amount of techno-wizardry. A 1" ultra dot and some really good training (Zins/Moody clinic) got me into the frame of mind to excel. Not sure I'll make it on the podium but want to be the inspiratoin for others "If that fat old bald-headed guy can do it, I should be able too..." Yes I agree, setting goals and working to achieve them will do you well. To the guy who recommended the articles by Norman Wong, Been thar, dun that. Printed the articles and gave them to 4 eye doctors in my town. Said once you've read it and understand what I'm looking for, call me and I'll make an appointment. Only 2 called back, one was very interested. I see that eye doctor annually now.
Along with the goals mentioned in this post were the goal to become triple distinguished: Pistol, Revolver, and Rifle. The rifle goal is haunting me. I need to dedicate more time to the long gun but do not want to give up or back off my pistol goals. Rifle shooters are not as fun as pistol shooters. Show up at a rifle match with a cup of coffee and they look at you like you had 3 ears.

[trulyapostolic]

While shooting with a dot, I use "indicators" that let me know the shot will be an
I see the dot come into the tube from 1:00 position.
I have the dot as dull as possible (position 1 indoor, 2 or 3 outdoor)
The dot settles about 5:00 position half way between edge of black and X
My squeeze drives the red shadow toward the X

Thank you for the excellent description on what a red dot shooter I'd supposed to look at, the target!

Not to be too trite here, and I am not a 2600 shooter like the incredibly talented Mr. Dan Pauley, (at least not yet) but in my opinion, you can shoot well and look at any damn thing you want with a dot,

as long as you DO NOT let what you see affect your smooth continuous pull of the trigger OR change your grip in any way on the gun.

Trite is a good description. So is giving bad advice .

[Isabel1130]

While shooting with a dot, I use "indicators" that let me know the shot will be an
I see the dot come into the tube from 1:00 position.
I have the dot as dull as possible (position 1 indoor, 2 or 3 outdoor)
The dot settles about 5:00 position half way between edge of black and X
My squeeze drives the red shadow toward the X

Thank you for the excellent description on what a red dot shooter I'd supposed to look at, the target!

Not to be too trite here, and I am not a 2600 shooter like the incredibly talented Mr. Dan Pauley, (at least not yet) but in my opinion, you can shoot well and look at any damn thing you want with a dot,

as long as you DO NOT let what you see affect your smooth continuous pull of the trigger OR change your grip in any way on the gun.

Trite is a good description. So is giving bad advice .

Let me be more specific.

Brian Zins says he looks at the target.

John Zurek has told me he looks at the dot centered in the tube

Chuck Holt has said he looks at the dot.

Other great shooters such as Bill Blankenship, and John Bickar and Tony Silva have told me that triggering is everything, and the important thing is not to make triggering errors. My personal experience aligns with what John, and other great shooters have said, which is "what you see is past history".

You need to be pulling the trigger as the sights come into alignment, or as the dot is moving into the black. if you wait for everything to be centered or aligned you are behind the shot.

My biggest error is hesitating on the trigger. Bad triggering can easily turn an slow fire 9 or 10 into a 7 or worse.

Bad advice is a state of mind. Some concepts that made no sense to me two or three years ago, all the sudden becomes relevant when someone shows me a new way of thinking about something.

[C. Perkins]

I personally look at the red dot.
Use Vermillion lenses to also enhance it.
Just saying that we all have different ways of doing the same thing, right or wrong it is up to the individual as this is what we are.

Clarence

[dryfire]

motorcycle-dan

For what it's worth I just completed a Zins/Moody advanced clinic 2 weeks ago. and another guy who resides in Ohio and just happens to have won the National Championship 12 times said that when he shoots dot his eyes are on the target. When he shoots iron sights his eyes are on the front sight. I am not a 2600 shooter but I consider myself to be a good student. You have adapted your indicators to your dot. It seems to me that now you have to adapt your indicators to your iron sight. Andy Moody said, "you shoot sight alignment" If that makes sense If you can hold a 10 you will be shooting to an area that will be out of focus to you as it should be. You might also get some ideas from A.A. Yur' Yev book, Competitive Shooting. Sorry I could not underline the title of the book.

[motorcycle_dan]

[quote="dryfire"]motorcycle-dan
For what it's worth I just completed a Zins/Moody advanced clinic 2 weeks ago.t. You might also get some ideas from A.A. Yur' Yev book, Competitive Shooting./quote]
I didn't break 2600 with irons this season. I did manage a 2597 but not good enough. For the last match of the season I put the dots back on and started shoot that way. Takes a while to get back in the swing. Shot a 2585 giving away many points to the long line. I find it very difficult to use iron sights indoors. I can see them outside shooting center mass but can't do that indoors, not enough contrast. Several people said to do the same type of thing, watch how the sights come into alignment. How do they move as they are coming into alignment as I'm increasing trigger pressure. It works somewhat, but not as obvious as the dot indicators.

[Isabel1130]

motorcycle-dan
For what it's worth I just completed a Zins/Moody advanced clinic 2 weeks ago.t. You might also get some ideas from A.A. Yur' Yev book, Competitive Shooting./quote]
I didn't break 2600 with irons this season. I did manage a 2597 but not good enough. For the last match of the season I put the dots back on and started shoot that way. Takes a while to get back in the swing. Shot a 2585 giving away many points to the long line. I find it very difficult to use iron sights indoors. I can see them outside shooting center mass but can't do that indoors, not enough contrast. Several people said to do the same type of thing, watch how the sights come into alignment. How do they move as they are coming into alignment as I'm increasing trigger pressure. It works somewhat, but not as obvious as the dot indicators.

I find I have to shoot sub six with irons because of this issue. Most international is shot indoors, and it is just too confusing to go center hold outdoors, and sub six indoors in order to see the sights.

[oldcaster]

When I shot in the AMU in the 60's they insisted that we shoot center hold for everything. Granted we were in our middle 20's and could see well but at that time, Blankenship claimed that he watched target and front and back sight. I tried that and made a mess out of what I was doing but keep in mind that everyone is not made the same. I know some older shooters now (poor eyesight) that shoot very good slow fire scores with irons with a 6 o'clock hold which means they have to be looking at the target or they couldn't keep it at 6 0'clock. I have tried to do this and it might work OK for some shots especially at slow fire but when I get to the short line, the gun will automatically go center and go off or I will display poor trigger control trying to break the shot at the bottom of the black. All of the AMU coaches claimed Blankenship was just saying that he looked at the target to get others to make that mistake. I am not so sure whether he looked at the target or not but I know that I can't get away with it. I believe you will probably have to try both methods to see what category you fit in. Unless no one was telling the truth in my AMU group they all shot center hold watching only the front sight and ignoring where the target was and just concentrated on trigger control making every effort to break the shot as a surprise. Everyone in the group shot high master scores and I don't think the guns were that good either. Being in Europe I think we were second fiddle when it came to gun quality, especially the 22's. The 45's we built ourselves.