howdy -
we are new to the shooting sports so 1) please forgive me if this is in the wrong section and 2) excuse any terminology imprecision.
I have a 12 yo daughter who has been shooting SPORTER 3P air rifle in CMP and NRA tournaments for 2 years as a member of a Jr Rifle team sponsored by a local shooting club. She shoots these competitions using a AA200T air rifle made by CZ. She is a slight child and in 6th grade
Last summer, she shot NRA small bore matches and because we don't have a rifle borrowed one from the club (Remington 513T) which frustrated her greatly as it was 1) too long / front heavy, 2) LoP wasn't a good fit for her and 3) heavier than she could comfortably manage in standing.
She was a real trooper and her persistence came through --- BUT everything i've read and my own intuition tells me that it is very important to make sure the equipment fits the shooter so that the technique/muscle memory doesn't get 'polluted' by using equipment which forces her to change her position to accommodate the rifle.
I don't want to repeat last summer's experience as she didn't enjoy herself as much as she did the Air Rifle season. So.... I'm looking for a rifle for her to use.
To date, I have 2 suggestions:
1) ANS 1903 with Match Sights (new)
and
2) ANS 1407, shortened to 16.5" with a 10" bloop tube, adj buttplate/cheekpiece and necessary hand stop/accessory rail and sling swivel (used)
Both options are nominally the same investment - but I have NO idea given which might be a better solution for her.
I'm open to suggestions, other things to consider, other rifles, sources for same, etc so that the investment made will be the best possible one for her. She loves to shoot in AirRifle competitions and I want to make sure she enjoys the small bore side of the house equally.
Another point of information - she routinely shoots in the high 300s - low 400s in her 3P matches and shoots 1-2 times per week.
Thanks in advance for your opinions/guidance/understanding.
Choosing a Small Bore rifle
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
If nothing else , keep her shooting air rifle.
If she's shooting a T200 now, the 1407 is probably better (lighter).
Look around for a Izmash CM-2 Cadet ... just about the same weight and a few hundred less expensive ... I've had quite a few of our shooters qualify for JOs with those guns, so that are accurate enough ... trigger is not as good as the Anschutz though.
You're right ... a 513 is a monster for that small of a shooter.
I have an old (but accurate!) 510-X for our real small shooters. Again trigger is limited, but it shoots well .... look for one of them also.
If she's shooting a T200 now, the 1407 is probably better (lighter).
Look around for a Izmash CM-2 Cadet ... just about the same weight and a few hundred less expensive ... I've had quite a few of our shooters qualify for JOs with those guns, so that are accurate enough ... trigger is not as good as the Anschutz though.
You're right ... a 513 is a monster for that small of a shooter.
I have an old (but accurate!) 510-X for our real small shooters. Again trigger is limited, but it shoots well .... look for one of them also.
ShamrOck
You are correct, an unadulterated Rem 513T, while overall an excellent introductory rifle is going to present difficulties for anyone that is not near full adult size stature.
The move to a stock designed specifically for target shooting will make position development much easier and likely lead to more rapid improvement.
You make reference to the 1407 having an adjustable cheekpiece, this sounds like an aftermarket modification as the true 1407s did not have adjustable cheekpiece. (Somewhere in the early 1980s the 1807s did get a cheekpiece that could be adjusted by shims.) If the cheekpiece is aftermarket make sure you are not buying a poorly done modification. I assume the adjustable butt plate is the original rubber plate that slides up and down?
Overall, the 1407 is a better rifle, it has the Match 54 action, better trigger and assuming the barrel was cut with care a better barrel.
The 1903 is based on the lighter Match 64 action. The trigger is not as nice as the 1407 but still very serviceable. The barrel will be fine out to 50 yards/meters but would not stand up against the barrel in a 1407 at 100 yards. For a "My first target rifle" it is also a good option. As there are a few basic adjustments this can be a benefit to new shooters getting used to changing things between stages/matches during 3P.
Now, I personally am a big fan of the 1903 for newer shooters, especially if as you say, your daughter is a little bit on the slight side. I would be hard to go wrong. After a year or two in the 1903, sell it and upgrade to the next thing that seems appropriate.
The 1407 you describe is interesting but also clearly used. Bloop tubes also incur an extra level of care and cleaning you/daughter may not want to deal with. If the rifle and barrel was in good shape and the modifications done with good workmanship then it would be a better rifle than the 1903 The only caveat being the stock is a touch larger than 1903.
Now, you say the money is about the same. Last I looked the 1903 was available in the $1400 - $1500 range. If the 1407 you are talking about is also at $1400-$1500 at first blush that strikes me as being a little high, (assuming a true 1407) but I am not looking at the rifle, you may want to check around a bit.
The conservative approach buys the 1903, the more adventurous approach the 1407.
Sorry I cannot be more definitive.
'Dude
You are correct, an unadulterated Rem 513T, while overall an excellent introductory rifle is going to present difficulties for anyone that is not near full adult size stature.
The move to a stock designed specifically for target shooting will make position development much easier and likely lead to more rapid improvement.
You make reference to the 1407 having an adjustable cheekpiece, this sounds like an aftermarket modification as the true 1407s did not have adjustable cheekpiece. (Somewhere in the early 1980s the 1807s did get a cheekpiece that could be adjusted by shims.) If the cheekpiece is aftermarket make sure you are not buying a poorly done modification. I assume the adjustable butt plate is the original rubber plate that slides up and down?
Overall, the 1407 is a better rifle, it has the Match 54 action, better trigger and assuming the barrel was cut with care a better barrel.
The 1903 is based on the lighter Match 64 action. The trigger is not as nice as the 1407 but still very serviceable. The barrel will be fine out to 50 yards/meters but would not stand up against the barrel in a 1407 at 100 yards. For a "My first target rifle" it is also a good option. As there are a few basic adjustments this can be a benefit to new shooters getting used to changing things between stages/matches during 3P.
Now, I personally am a big fan of the 1903 for newer shooters, especially if as you say, your daughter is a little bit on the slight side. I would be hard to go wrong. After a year or two in the 1903, sell it and upgrade to the next thing that seems appropriate.
The 1407 you describe is interesting but also clearly used. Bloop tubes also incur an extra level of care and cleaning you/daughter may not want to deal with. If the rifle and barrel was in good shape and the modifications done with good workmanship then it would be a better rifle than the 1903 The only caveat being the stock is a touch larger than 1903.
Now, you say the money is about the same. Last I looked the 1903 was available in the $1400 - $1500 range. If the 1407 you are talking about is also at $1400-$1500 at first blush that strikes me as being a little high, (assuming a true 1407) but I am not looking at the rifle, you may want to check around a bit.
The conservative approach buys the 1903, the more adventurous approach the 1407.
Sorry I cannot be more definitive.
'Dude
-
Maxicooper
- Posts: 161
- Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:06 am
- Location: Ellicott City, MD
Lots of very valuable opinions here and they make perfect sense which I think makes it probably all that more difficult.
My personal experience here when faced with similar choices was to go with the 1907. My son is 11 about 4'11 90lbs with arm length of about 55cm. The 1907 at 10.5lbs was pretty heavy and he worked hard through standing. I really liked the 54 trigger option and future upgrade abilities. We have now switched out the barrel to a shorter lighter one, with a sight extension tube. It dropped the weight to 8.6 lbs which he finds much more comfortable and is only slightly heavier than his FWB air rifle. For me the investment was in the possibility and having something he could grow with. FWIW we found a used 1907 without sights for a pretty competitive price to the 1903 CMP here on TT which made it worth it.
My personal experience here when faced with similar choices was to go with the 1907. My son is 11 about 4'11 90lbs with arm length of about 55cm. The 1907 at 10.5lbs was pretty heavy and he worked hard through standing. I really liked the 54 trigger option and future upgrade abilities. We have now switched out the barrel to a shorter lighter one, with a sight extension tube. It dropped the weight to 8.6 lbs which he finds much more comfortable and is only slightly heavier than his FWB air rifle. For me the investment was in the possibility and having something he could grow with. FWIW we found a used 1907 without sights for a pretty competitive price to the 1903 CMP here on TT which made it worth it.
The used to be sold by MTGuns but he was bought out by Chesbro Rifles when he retired.Shamr0ck wrote:I do not know the Izmash rifle line, but will start researching them.
http://www.mtguns.com/
http://www.chesebrorifles.com/Izhmash-CM-2-A-3-37.htm
If you call ask for the Cadet (Youth) version ... a bit shorter stock and BBL making it fairly light ... about what a Sporter air rifle weighs.
Looks like Mac tilton (MTGuns) may still be importing/selling (???)
As I said it is an entry / intermediate rifle, and mostly because of the trigger.
All of ours (4) will shoot sub-moa with Eley Black EPS in a 100yd tunnel.
Here are some TT threads:
viewtopic.php?t=22266&highlight=cm2
viewtopic.php?t=28192&highlight=cm2
Here is a link to one of our shooters (primarily a 3-p air shooter) firing one in the 4-H Nationals a few years ago:
http://www.vc4hss.com/VC4HSS_PHOTOS/emA ... mg=64&tn=1
One of these days I'll post newer pics.