Page 1 of 1
Rule 7.5.4.5 - Jacket Side Panel - More Questions
Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:50 pm
by jhmartin
OKIE, DOKIE .... Drat!
Sent some photos to Gary Anderson this past weekend for his opinion on what the ISSF is meaning about this rule.
Below these photos is Gary's response on what he thinks ISSF will rule on this jacket (a KT Adventure). If you have jacket seams that look like these, get ready to repair/replace.
(And yes, it's a new jacket ... started shooting it at trials in Feb)
And my own $0.02 is that this seam offers no support.........
Also note that this seam passed stiffness EC at Winter Airgun a week ago.
=====================================
Gary's response to my query:
(my underlined emphasis)
Thanks for getting touch with your questions regarding this new rule.
First to restate what you probably already know: ISSF Rule 7.5.4.5 prohibiting "any horizontal seam or seams under the elbow of the support arm in the standing position" will apply for ISSF competitions (World Cups, etc.) beginning in 2013, but this rule was not included in the 2012-2014 National Standard Three-Position Air Rifle Rules so it will not apply in any 3-position air rifle competitions in the U. S. USAS Rules for next year are not yet finalized, but it is likely that USAS will pick up some version of this prohibition, perhaps with a grace period for achieving compliance.
The purpose of the rule is to prevent manufacturers from take advantage of this critical support surface for the standing position by using a seam to add stiffness that exceeds the 3.0mm depression minimum that a flat panel without a seam is allowed to provide. We had a couple of manufacturers that started doing this including KT and one Asian manufacturer. It became just one more small example of the "technological doping" that the ISSF must either fight or see its efforts to keep the playing field level go out the window.
We are still in the process of developing precise guidelines to give ISSF Equipment Control Inspectors. We likely will end up with something that says if the horizontal seam is clearly visible below the tip of the elbow when holding a rifle in standing, the seam will be legal. Any seam that lies anywhere between the tip of the elbow to a point 6 or 8 cm above where the tip of the elbow lies will be illegal. That means the jacket which was shown in the photos you attached is likely to be illegal for ISSF competitions, but not for 3-position air rifle and NRA competitions in the USA.
I am working with our ISSF technical experts now to finalize a guideline for rifle jacket inspection so my advice would be to wait a few more weeks before undertaking any modifications so that we have a final ISSF interpretation on this rule.
With best regards,
Gary
In regards to his mention CMP and NRA comps .... these two organizations usually amend their rules to comply with ISSF after a few years pass. It will be crazy for shooters not to begin to conform as you don't want to have an NRA Suit & a ISSF suit.......
Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:41 pm
by Abi
Hmm...
On the Monard Super, they made that section on a diagonal. The smudge in the suede from my elbow is about 1 to 1.5 inches above the seam. "Maybe" I got lucky...
I wish they would have attached some diagrams with the rule changes. Thank you for posting your photos and the info you have.
Abi
Jacket
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:29 am
by RobinC
Thanks Joel
You've dragged it out of him! In Andersons diatribe to me he is adamant that it will effect very few jackets, only the ones who are deliberatly getting an unfair advantage out of it. This is clear that a lot of jackets will be illegal and it will not be jacket to jacket but shooter to shooter with the same jacket depending on build, you're lucky Abi my wifes Monard has her elbow right on the seam.
Raises the question why they (the ISSF) did not raise this issue with the manufacturers rather than slap on a new rule at a months notice with no consulation with KT or Monard?
Robin
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:09 pm
by jhmartin
Really wasn't a "drag it out of him".
After the Winter Airgun match I was concerned, so took some photos at our next SB practice, and emailed them to him.
Nice that the response was within a day and gave some more detailed thinking into what is and isn't.
It's a tired phrase, but "It is what it is", and I don't think the masses of shooters/coaches/manufacturers are going to change it.
I hate to think this way, but the "game" is now different.
Kinda like if basketball came up with a few new rules:
1) End lines are moved in 10 feet to prevent the "scrums" under the basket and remove those pesky layups
2) Shots outside the 3 point line are still 3
3) Shots with 1 or 2 feet on the ground are 2 points (more opportunity for TV reviews)
4) Shots with no feet on the ground are now only 1 point (helps offset height advantage)
5) First team to 37 points wins (Shortens timelines for Olympic competition & TV)
Still call it basketball, but different.
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:55 am
by jhmartin
Another Jacket - Another DRAT!
This is a brand new Champions Choice CC801xxx mens jacket received last Thursday (12/6/2012). Put it on last night at practice, and bummer ... it's gonna be illegal too.
Used a cell phone camera and also my jacket ruler ... the top of the yellow is at 70mm, so this was 4.5cm from the tip of the elbow. Note the start of the sorta diagonal seam near the button. The zero on the ruler was right on the seam.
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:05 am
by jhmartin
Abi wrote:Hmm...
On the Monard Super, they made that section on a diagonal. The smudge in the suede from my elbow is about 1 to 1.5 inches above the seam. "Maybe" I got lucky...
Abi
Abi ... the smudge is only the "contact" where jacket meets jacket ... if they measure from the tip of your elbow, it might be right on the seam ... the worrisome part is the 6-8cm measurement Gary noted.
Have someone get a ruler, put the zero on the seam, and see where the tip of your elbow is.
"MAYBE", you get lucky.
This is a really bad rule in that unless they have you mount your rifle at EC with all gear on you really cannot tell. It's gonna partially be determined on what your stance is. The jacket may pass on one person and fail on another. Chaos in EC. Or better yet, chaos on the line.
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:43 pm
by jhmartin
More questions on the interpretation of 7.5.4.5 ....
For those who have been thru the recent ISSF checks, or seen them done ...
How are they handling jackets that have diagonal seams that "transit" the "seam free zone"? They go 70mm above the tip of the elbow and 20mm below, but how wide is the zone? Width of the arm? Width of the whole panel?
(Grrrrrrrr) I've gotten past bitching about the rule ... Now I just want to know what it means.
============================================
Update
============================================
Well .... pot!
One of the local high schools sent over a Monard Jacket that has a diagonal seam. (GREAT FIT!) Seemed to clear with an air rifle, but the heavier smallbore rifle moves the elbow down.
[sarcasm]More "Technological Doping" I guess[/sarcasm]
So I learned something today ... you had better test with your heaviest rifle.
Test
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:37 am
by RobinC
jh
My Wifes Monard with a diagonal seam was checked at the point of the elbow and in relation to the seam at that point. Hers was just legal (and I mean JUST!) and she got her tags and cert but its so close she's having it modded any way as we know she is sure to be pestered by range officers checking it and its just another thing to "F" up a shoot and is not worth the hassle.
I'm sorry to be bitter but I'm not a quiter, I just wish for the good of our sport I had the funds to mount a legal challenge to this and a couple of other of the new rules. I'm still angry that this stupid rule has been allowed in, there was no need for it, it was not discussed at the clothing group sub committee(source, a prominent member of that committee),no manufacturers were consulted (I've checked with all the European ones) and Anderson in an "unfriendly" email to me denied that it would effect the majority of jackets and that it was aimed at a rare few who were deliberatly rule doping. He and the ISSF is simply wrong and don't have the guts to apolagise and admit it.
70%+ of jackets failed at the European championships forcing a quick rule revision to put in a transition period to May, it will cost me personaly and many others at least £100 to alter jackets, many many more will need a new jacket, and others will only shoot to national rules harming the progression through to internationals, the people responsible should resign.
Robin
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:16 pm
by Colin
Have you had a look at them at the World cups Robin, their onto too good a thing to resign.