TargetTalk

6.2.2.2 Safety flags must be inserted in all rifles, pistols and semiautomatic
shotguns at all times other than during authorized dry
firing or live firing on a firing point. The purpose of safety flags is to
visibly demonstrate when gun actions are open and guns are
unloaded. To demonstrate that air rifles and air pistols are
unloaded, the safety flag must be long enough to extend through
the full length of the barrel.

•If a safety flag is not used as required by this rule, a Jury
Member must give a WARNING with instructions to insert a
safety flag in the gun.
- 186 - Edition 2013 (First Print, 11/2012)

•If the Jury confirms that an athlete refuses to use a safety
flag as required by this rule and after being warned, the
athlete must be disqualified.


6.2.2.4 When placing a gun down to leave the firing point or when firing is
complete, all guns must be unloaded with actions (bolt or locking
mechanism) open and safety flags inserted. Before leaving a
firing point, the athlete must ascertain and the Range Officer must
verify that there is no cartridge or pellet in the gun’s chamber,
barrel or magazine and a safety flag is inserted.

The ISSF have done it again.....
There is no definition or drawing of what they want.....
What constitutes a safety flag ?
Does a red plastic manufactures breech plug comply ?

and how does the flag work in a Toz 36 or 49?

It appears the flag must extend beyond the muzzle and breech so a manufactures breech plug would not suffice. We require the same thing for 4-H and some junior shooting. A length of orange string trimmer string works nicely. Very visible on line by RO. Not only indicates the breech is empty but that there is no projectile in the barrel.

Seems over kill to me for international competition though.

It is overkill. Particularly demanding one long enough to project from both ends of the barrel. The NRA (which is where ISSF got the idea) is quite satisfied with one in the breech.

the flag only needs to extend beyond the muzzle and breech for air rifle and air pistol

ken4all wrote:the flag only needs to extend beyond the muzzle and breech for air rifle and air pistol

sorry, but that doesnt help out.
do you have a photo as an example?

cheers
Brad

brakarzac wrote:

ken4all wrote:the flag only needs to extend beyond the muzzle and breech for air rifle and air pistol

sorry, but that doesnt help out.
do you have a photo as an example?

cheers
Brad

I know the rules aren't great but I don't understand your problem. Surely anything that can go from the breach to the muzzle is fine - so for example a length of garden strimmer line with a knot in one end.

It will however be more interesting for 5-shot air pistols that take a magazine unless an unloaded magazine is sufficient ?

Rob.

RobStubbs wrote: I know the rules aren't great but I don't understand your problem. Surely anything that can go from the breach to the muzzle is fine - so for example a length of garden strimmer line with a knot in one end.
Rob.

Hi Robb,

My problem, as Spencer has mentioned. Is placing a flag through the the full length of the barrel. What does the ISSF deem as acceptable to feed through the barrel and what is wrong with the old system of the RO walking along and physically inspecting each firearm on the line.

I know that takes time, but its worked in the 20 years I have been shooting!!!

and going back to the flags, is that something the ISSF or firearms manufacturer produce? or do we make out own up at our leisure?

cheers
Brad

If the flag is visible at both ends it would still have to be 'waggled' to prove that it is continous ;-)

An interesting interpretation of rule 6.2.2.2 is that it states
"6.2.2.2 Safety flags must be inserted in all rifles, pistols and semiautomatic
shotguns at all times other than during authorized dry
firing or live firing on a firing point. The purpose of safety flags is to
visibly demonstrate when gun actions are open and guns are
unloaded. To demonstrate that air rifles and air pistols are
unloaded, the safety flag must be long enough to extend through
the full length of the barrel. "
This is going to make the trigger weight testing interesting at EC as most air pistols cannot discharge the propellant with the cocking lever up, which it would have to be, to enable a full length breech flag to be inserted and displayed.

brakarzac wrote:....what is wrong with the old system of the RO walking along and physically inspecting each firearm on the line.

If you were looking at a Morini CM162EI, for example, it is impossible to tell whether there is a pellet seated in the chamber without either looking down the barrel from the front sight or passing something through the barrel.

David Levene wrote:

brakarzac wrote:....what is wrong with the old system of the RO walking along and physically inspecting each firearm on the line.

If you were looking at a Morini CM162EI, for example, it is impossible to tell whether there is a pellet seated in the chamber without either looking down the barrel from the front sight or passing something through the barrel.

Right and that's been a problem in reality with people accidentally shooting themselves or others ? It's all very good coming up with hypothetical scenarios for safety 'problems' that don't happen.

The guns can't be locked away in a case with the flag in so could be loaded then... So where do you draw the line ?

Rob.

When I first started coaching back in 2005, the JROTC rifle programs were in a shut-down state due to multiple injuries ... one fatal (smallbore rifle), the rest moderate to severe (Air Rifle). Many of these incidents were due to simple stupidity and lack of awareness

The CMP had pow-wows with the JROTC programs and came up with mandatory training and some physical items to help this issue out.
Clear Barrel Indicators (CBIs) were one of those physical items.

Currently on the Anniston and Camp Perry 10m airgun ranges, the CBI use is mandatory ... range rules for any match, not just 3-P air but even in the Olympic Trials last year. All 3-P air requires use by rule.

The issue came about in one instance where a low cylinder caused a pellet to be jammed half way in the BBL .... not easily detectable. The instructor charged the rifle (in his office) and test fired it. I don't recall if the instructor or a student was hit by the pellet ... one of them was. Yes, just plain stupidity.

There was a big concern about the CBI's causing a lack of muzzle awareness, and I've seen one or two instances of that in the past years, but I'm not convinced that the CBI made any difference ... usually a LOUD and BOOMING "WATCH YOUR MUZZLE!!!" warning has sufficed to keep it from happening .... having the CBI in just assured the RO's that there was some safety awareness involved.

I HATE to watch shooters pick a CBI up off the floor and insert it into their barrels. Watch where you store it and wipe it off before inserting is a good practice. Replacing them every year or two can't hurt either.

I have feelings on both sides of the argument, but have become accustomed to using it with my shooters and enforcing the use on junior ranges.

As an aside .... many of us already use ECI's (Empty Chamber Indicators) on firearms ... the CBI is just an extension of that.
On airguns, just having the loading gate open is no guarantee that there is not a pellet in the bbl somewhere.

I use round "weedeater" line to make these and create a loop on one end so that the shooters can hang this on OH stands for rifle. A photo of one installed in a Tau7-JR is below:

RobStubbs wrote:Right and that's been a problem in reality with people accidentally shooting themselves or others ? It's all very good coming up with hypothetical scenarios for safety 'problems' that don't happen.

Well... I once shot a hole in the ceiling during equipment control when I tested a pistol which was handed to me with a pellet still in the barrel.

Of all the new rules this one is the least intrusive and I can't understand why anyone would have a problem with it.

j-team wrote:

RobStubbs wrote:Right and that's been a problem in reality with people accidentally shooting themselves or others ? It's all very good coming up with hypothetical scenarios for safety 'problems' that don't happen.

Well... I once shot a hole in the ceiling during equipment control when I tested a pistol which was handed to me with a pellet still in the barrel.

Of all the new rules this one is the least intrusive and I can't understand why anyone would have a problem with it.

As I said above though, how is this rule going to stop that ? Guns are put away without any flags, so the only solution is for EQ to mandate them coming into the testing area.

And safety shouldn't be down to such 'devices' to police, it should be instructed to the shooters as a matter of course.

Rob.

David Levene wrote:

brakarzac wrote:....what is wrong with the old system of the RO walking along and physically inspecting each firearm on the line.

If you were looking at a Morini CM162EI, for example, it is impossible to tell whether there is a pellet seated in the chamber without either looking down the barrel from the front sight or passing something through the barrel.

Ok Rob, I see your point on the Morini. As I own that model myself.
But I will be damned if I am putting a foreign object down the barrel of my precision equipment as I do NOT want to damage the firearm.

WHY must the flag go through the entire barrel?
WHO is going to make a lot of money making these ISSF approved flags?
WHAT are the flags going to made out of?

These are the concerns of everyday shooters who do not or may never compete at international events.

Cheers
Brad

RobStubbs wrote:
And safety shouldn't be down to such 'devices' to police, it should be instructed to the shooters as a matter of course.

Rob.

How is this for a simple solution, if your firearms discharges during EC you are disqualified instantly from the event. That will make sure people properly clear air pistols!!!

Cheers
Brad

brakarzac wrote: WHY must the flag go through the entire barrel?

So that no pellet is in the barrel as described above

brakarzac wrote: WHO is going to make a lot of money making these ISSF approved flags?

jhmartin seams to have the first approved model for safety flags ;)

brakarzac wrote: WHAT are the flags going to made out of?

Some substance that's softer than your barrel, so it wont get scratched.

I know that this rules are a pain in the ****, but if their are applied to all competition, big and (specially) small, the chances of an accident will be smaller.
And that's something wort trying.

It's a piece of trimmer or weedeater line. You can buy a few hundred feet for less than $10. At Camp Perry they have a box of the stuff cut up and give it out for free. I don't think this is about someone getting rich off them. Personally I think they are kinda of silly, if the rules are followed there wouldn't be any incidents, not sure how having one more rule that someone can not follow just as easy really improves safety. It's definitely not a bid deal especially compared to some of the other rule change gems.

As usually the rule is written poorly and will now require either another rule or an amendment. It seems that there is no provision for removing the indicator during equipment control and expelling air.

A common mistake in cleaning eyeglasses and other lenses is using some sort of cloth which has been contaminated by hard particles of whatever. Just because the cleaning cloth is soft doesn't mean the lenses will not be scratched beyond repair. This often happens when people rub coated camera lenses with handkerchiefs. Expensive mistake. Similarly one must be very careful regarding anything pulled through the rather soft steel of an air pistol barrel. Drop your 'flag' on a floor for instance and step on it - the very soft plastic may become embedded with one or more particles of soil, even sand which is much harder than the tools used to cut the rifling. Pull that through the barrel once and the barrel may be damaged slightly. Pull it through hundreds of times and the barrel may lose its accuracy.

I'm not taking a stand against these flags as it does seem there are large portions of humanity stupid enough to leave loaded pistols laying around... but I'd want to check that flag manually before every use. Dragging it between the fingers a couple of times ought to reveal any projecting contaminating particles.