TargetTalk

Hi,

Newbie a question on flying with my airgun. From the SouthWest web site: "Compressed gas cylinders are allowed in checked baggage or as a carryon only if the regulator valve is completely disconnected from the cylinder and the cylinder is no longer sealed (i.e., the cylinder has an open end). TSA Security Screeners must visibly ensure that the cylinder is completely empty and that there are no prohibited items inside."

So my newbie question, how does one open a Pardini K10's cylinder enough to allow visual inspection?! To empty it, I just screw on the brass tap; that should open the valve, right?

I'm heading to Colorado Springs for Winter Airgun Nationals (aka 3 Times Air) but flying in/out of Denver. I'm assuming my Pardini case with 2 NON TSA locks will be OK, inside my suitcase. With the cylinder and tin of pellets packed in their foam sections.

thanks,
Jab

I last flew with an airgun in 2004, so factor that in-

a. declare the airgun as a firearm. It's not a firearm, but you really don't want to be having that conversation with the TSA employees.

b. When I flew, in 2004, I had to use the filling adapter to show the cylinder was empty.

It's probably a good idea to call USAS and ask what the current pitfalls are.

This is a real iffy subject. In the past few years Colo Springs airport TSA has been extremely uncooperative.

Flying into the Springs is usually OK as you are checking in at a "reasonable" airport. It's the flying out that is the problem.

In reality, going in and out of Denver greatly increases your chances of flying with the cylinder ... up to about 99.999999999%.
Colo Springs is 0%.

Declare it as a firearm as GovtModel says and just fill out the tag and slip it in the case. Also better if cylinder is EMPTY and attached to the rifle/pistol. Note this has to be CHECKED baggage.

A group has been working with Robert Mitchell of USAS on resolving this issue, and there was some progress for the Olympics, but until TSA and DOT can publish a document that unequivocally states that you can fly with an airgun cylinder STAY AWAY from the Colo Springs airport. There are a few other airports back east that are as bad, I don't know which ones they are ... maybe someone else can pipe in there.

This Feb at the Rocky Mountain Rifle Match, the Italian team was held up at the airport and not allowed to fly out with their cylinders .... USAS had to go get them and ship them home ... a real hassle.

If you are flying into and out of the Springs, bring a tube to ship your cylinder home via UPS. You can pack it, give USAS the shipping fee and they (USAS) will usually be very accommodating on getting UPS to pick it up.

SUMMARY: as of 10/17/2012 DO NOT TRY AND FLY YOUR CYLINDERS OUT OF THE COLORADO SPRINGS AIRPORT.
Denver is fine.

Ironic that the most intransigent asshole TSA folks are at the home of the OLYMPIC Training Center.

Go USA!!!

I had meant to also post this ... it is directly from the Winter Airgun Match program:

AIR CYLINDERS:
Transportation of air cylinders is the responsibility of the shooter. If you plan to ship your air cylinder prior to the match, please mail it attention yourself, and care of USA Shooting- WAG-, 1 Olympic Plaza, Colorado Springs, CO 80909. We will store them in the Competitions office and you can pick it up when you arrive. We will also ship your cylinder home for you at the conclusion of the match for $10 per box. The $10 covers the shipping and the packing materials. USA Shooting will not be held responsible for shipping air cylinders that do not clear TSA at the airport. We strongly recommend shipping. Please review your airlines restrictions prior to departing.

The "We strongly recommend shipping." should be taken seriously. I just received info from USAS that they do not expect any changes in TSA policy at C-Springs in time for Winter Airgun.

If you search the forum here you can get a hand on the reasons this happened at this particular airport. It is mainly the fault of one shooter a few years ago being an ass and dumping his cylinder right in front of a TSA agent and causing a scene at the counter.

This effects not only shooting athletes going in & out of C-Springs, but Cycling, Triathlon, & Modern Pentathlon as well. All of these sports must now travel thru Denver because I guess they cannot ship their gear easily.

Well the biggest jerk competitors that thought it was a bright idea to completely empty the full compressed air cylinder at security to prove it was empty didn't do you any favours with the TSA folks.

I'd just courier one cylinder to the OTC save your self the hassle.

Don't TSA have scanners then?

You can clearly see what's in a compressed air cylinder with them.



What do they do if you wish to put a solid steel bar in your luggage, prove it can't be opened?

Or are they trying to say their scanners can't distinguish gases?

Robf,
You're applying way too much common sense, disengage brain and try again ;)

Rob.

I think the point is that full compressed cylinders can explode. I think the chances with an empty cylinder is zero but that is what the regs are trying to get at - some way of making sure the cylinder cannot pressurize.

There should be some sort of simple fitting that can be put on a cylinder to keep the pressure valve open.

I'd be somewhat concerned about retaining a valve in the open position, just in the name of keeping the seal(s) clean. For the same reason one should always pump up a bicycle tube with a clean pump-head and always replace the valve caps - namely that a small bit of dirt can ruin the valve making replacement necessary. And a $4 bicycle tube is annoying enough to replace for such a trivial reason, never mind a $200+ air cylinder. If there were to be a stipulation that a locked-open insert were needed, it would have to incorporate at least a simple foam filter such that grit could not enter the valve while in transit.

robf wrote:Don't TSA have scanners then?

You can clearly see what's in a compressed air cylinder with them.

What do they do if you wish to put a solid steel bar in your luggage, prove it can't be opened?

Or are they trying to say their scanners can't distinguish gases?

Rob, believe me ... the presentations that Bob Mitchell has given to TSA, DOT, PHMSA, congressional staffers, etc have show images like you have described, from, I think, every type of machine that TSA uses.
Did you know that Boeing 787's have pressurized O2 canisters instead of the O2 generators? Next time you fly in one of those babies, it's right above your head above the overhead. Don't see TSA getting worked up over those.

The real issue at Colorado Springs is that the head of the TSA there got really torqued off at the shooter that morning and can interpret many of the regulations as far as he wants to ... and has determined that NO cylinders will fly out of C-Springs.

What Bob has been working on is a clear interpretation of the regs written in such a way that you can have a copy with you that says ... yes, indeed, you can fly with this thing.
They had some special circumstances/protocols for the athletes going to the Olympics ... not all that many athletes, but as described it was "very labor intensive".

TSA pretty much does what it wants ... (I'll stop now before profanity emerges from my keyboard)

Also... DJ .... problem with the locked open cylinder ... you don't want that cylinder "breathing" and sucking in moisture ... keep it sealed and keep it dry

The TSA concern is not that the cylinder can explode. It is a concern that if they can't see in, you might have explosives in there. Logic has nothing to do with it. Realize this is the same TSA that routinely waves aluminum beer kegs through their inspection line with no inspection whatsoever - imagine how much contraband could be packed inside one of those. Not to mention you can have a six pack of cans of your favorite beverage in a suitcase and they don't seem to have any problem with that. Of course, everyone knows that since those cans are assembled at the plant, there is no way anyone could tamper with those.....

dschaller wrote:The TSA concern is not that the cylinder can explode. It is a concern that if they can't see in, you might have explosives in there. Logic has nothing to do with it. Realize this is the same TSA that routinely waves aluminum beer kegs through their inspection line with no inspection whatsoever - imagine how much contraband could be packed inside one of those. Not to mention you can have a six pack of cans of your favorite beverage in a suitcase and they don't seem to have any problem with that. Of course, everyone knows that since those cans are assembled at the plant, there is no way anyone could tamper with those.....

The original reasons why these regulations exist was because of the crash of a Valujet Airliner in 1996 that was hauling a load oxygen generators. These are classified as Hazmat and were forbidden to be on the plane in the first place, but the ground crews thought they were just ordinary empty oxygen cylinders. The origin of the fire on the plane that eventually was thought to have occurred in the cargo hold were the cylinders were located. This most have been deduced from the recording and maybe from some remnants which were very small as the plane dove straight into Florida swamp when the fire melted the flight controls The story of this flight can be found at the following webpage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ValuJet_Flight_592 . The point here is that another government regulation was created and directed at a source that wasn't even the cause of the crash.

The worry about explosives came latter in the game when the terriorist started thinking of different ways of sneaking bombs on planes. Unfortunately, the government is doing just what the terriorist want. A further erosion of our liberties, which the goal of every terriorist since time began and that is to make the government your attacking become more and more oppressive to the point were the people will turn on their own government.

I had a conversation with a TSA Agent and they were only ban the cylinders until they got their new $2 million dollar scanners that could see through the aluminum cylinders. Unfortunately, the smart ass shooter let loose of his air cylinders and the TSA manager has become intransigent.

Mitchell has been trying to negotiate with the bureaucracy in DC and for a long time their was a lot of buck passing. He even had an argument with the second in command at TSA. The conversation with the TSA person was going nowhere as he said they can't see through the aluminum cylinders with their current machines so unless the cylinders can be opened they won't be allowed on the planes, but the conversation ended abruptly when Mitchell asked well what the aluminum baseball bats why are they allowed on planes. The TSA person called Mitchell a wise ass at that point and hung up. They almost had an agreement among all the parties involved until an Obama appointee who was in charge of the involved departments just decided to through common sense out the window and made a decision on her own to just say no.

The moral of this story is to those who think government is a benevolent thing should think about the old saying that " "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.". The better quote is from Ronald Regan "I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" All these agencies were started with good intentions and now they exist mostly as power centers were they gather power and money by justifying to the congress for creating new regulations and thereby justifying the need for more money and resources and people wonder why we have trillion dollar budget deficits.

Also, "Law Serves Power".

Get out the vote!

Someday I'm gonna write a book...

I had the bad experience described on this post last month a the RMC, and had to ship my cylinder to my home after a long disussion with the TSA representatives. It took about three weeks to reach me again...
I wonder if all airports do the same now or it is this particular airport/TSA staff combo. I have been flying for years nationally and internationally, mainly through Atlanta (Hartsfield), and have never had any issues before. This caught me off guard.
I should have read this thread before ...

IZH-46M, FTW.

The Izzy, being an SSP, has no external cylinder. I've flown with my Izzy through several airports - most recently Sacramento and Hilo - without any trouble. A TSA x-ray screener at the Hilo airport even said, in what seemed to be friendly banter, "airgun, yeah?".

I put it in checked luggage, pack it in the deluxe Baikal case (cardboard box!) and include a printout of the TSA regs, the airline's policy, and the description of the pistol itself from the Baikal website at http://imzcorp.com/en/company/55.html#tth for reference.

Any updates on this subject. I'm traveling to Colorado Springs (via Denver) in April with daughter and her air rifle. We are new to this sport and this is our fist time traveling with an air rifle w/air cylinder. I have traveled many times with a firearm for hunting purposes.

Thanks!

My team mates and I flew in and out of Denver with no problems. Denver is one of the airports where once your weapon is checked by the airline agent, they will have someone walk you to a TSA screener who will xray the bag; so give yourself extra time. They don't do that at Boston or Ft Lauderdale.

For International travel I went a step further and made the pin spanners to remove the tank end cap/s.
Now I carry the disassembled cylinder, pin spanner, spare o rings and lube and rebuild the tank after arrival.
Very hard to argue over a open empty tube.