TargetTalk

Interested to know what the difference might be in scores using each of these technologies, at less than elite levels.

According to some on this site, you'll drop from exhaustion before the match ends from cocking and pumping.

Personally, I think your scores would be about the same.

Sooo, are you a cocker, a pumper, or a pooter?

Personally, I do not shoot my FWB 300s as well as I do my FWB 603. Not by a long shot; the springer generally nets me 10-15 points lower than the SSP in a 60 shot "match". However, I attribute most of the difference to be the fit and balance of the rifle and how they sit in my hands and against my face, as opposed to the difference in intrinsic accuracy of either, which I don't think is all that great.

Having said that, I do feel the trigger and sights of the newer rifle are significantly more refined than the older design, and these undoubtedly make a difference...but I'd not think much, personally. A couple of points...maybe? There's even less difference in the trigger and sights of the 603 and FWB 700...keep that in mind.

I do not own any PCP rifles, but have shot quite a few. In my opinion, there is absolutely no difference in the accuracy of my 603 and the several FWB 700 rifles I have shot. Now, I mean no intrinsic accuracy difference in the rifle itself...but remember the PCP rifles require "less" from the shooter than the SSP rifles do...and this can add points when all else is equal.

For example, the whole pump process of that long lever between every shot of the SSP can be distracting, and potentially more tiring than the PCP...but not necessarily so.

I have developed a rhythm over the years that I fall into when shooting the SSP gun that I find very relaxing and somewhat therapeutic (I believe). If I ever get thrown out of my routine (which by its nature must be more involved with an SSP gun than a PCP), though, I drop more points with the SSP than with a PCP rifle. I wish I didn't.

Having said that, my highest scores have been set with the 603...not the PCP guns. If I owned a 700 and shot it as much as I do the 603, that'd likely change. Yet, I still haven't bought a PCP, though I could if I wanted. I continue to be more than happy to shoot the self-contained 603.

On the other hand, I shoot completely for fun...I don't chase scores much at all and hardly ever compete with other shooters.

Your mileage will vary...you can bet on that!!

I have a FWB300S Junior and shoot 83-85% scores with it. I find the cocking relatively easy and cock it on the shooting stand itself. I have altered its balance by filling the two 20x120mm cylindrical slots with lead as advised by Robin and I think it does improve the balance for me.

I would probably love to have an adjustable cheek piece on it.

I have not shot with any FWB SSPs but have shot with a local made SSP and found it difficult to cock than a FWB300.

Have also not shot with a PCP either. The local scene is alive with Alutec rifles FWB and Walther which offer all sorts of adjustments and all.

My FWB300SJ definitely shoots better than me and I ignore the hogwash I get from the PCP experts here who tell me I won't be able to shoot higher scores.

Hope that helps.

M.

peashooter wrote:Interested to know what the difference might be in scores using each of these technologies, at less than elite levels.

Some of the major differences have been touched on already but one that often overlooked is lock time or shot development time.

For the FWB300 a relatively heavy piston has to start moving, compress the air and get the pellet moving and out the barrel. At the same time, for the FWB 300 the whole barrel action assembly is moving backwards to absorb some of the energy. All this time and motion puts a premium on follow through.

Move on to the FWB 6xx, the SSPs, the air is already compressed and it is a relatively small hammer that knocks the release valve open, the action is inherently quicker and the rifled portion of the barrel might be all of 12 inches long... bottom line much faster lock time, less of a premium on perfect follow through. If you are really familiar with it you can feel some recoil from a FWB 6xx but it is very minor.

Finally the latest PCPs have all the advantages of the SSP with short rifled sections, small fast moving hammers and the most advanced crop also have vibration dampers which remove more of the vibration and motion inherent to a mechanical release system.

I will agree, the old springers have lower cocking effort than an SSP but due to the faster lock time the SSPs have the advantage.

The whole part about cocking force also depends on how big you are, for me at 6' and 195 lbs it is not too big a pull on my physical resources to stroke something like a FWB6xx the 80 times or so it will take to complete a 60 shot match. If I was 4' 11" and 100 lbs it would be a very different story. Less muscle mass and less energy reserves it would be a greater tax on the system.

The latest crop of PCP might have a slight advantage for lock time over the older SSP. Clearly they require less energy to operate because all the air has been compressed for you and the shooter just flips a little lever.

Now, "less than elite levels" is a pretty broad spectrum. Assuming we are talking about someone who is not a complete beginner something like an SSP is going to present some advantage due to faster lock time and modestly better trigger. If there is someone around to help get the stock on a new PCP properly adjusted then the modern stock adjustments will help. If you don't know what you are doing and get the stock working against you then the modern PCP will hurt not help.

Having said that, FWB has some mid range PCP rifles in modest laminate wood stocks that provide decent adjustability but are not so adjustable you can get yourself into trouble without realizing it.

So, to sum it up in a sentence: for less than elite levels it is still more how the gun is adjusted than the technology behind firing the pellet.

Good Luck,
'Dude

The 'Dude speaks the truth about lock times...I had completely forgot about that aspect...and it is a huge deal. The FWB 300 has a considerably longer lock-time than SSP and PCP rifles (and CO2, for that matter). As such, the 300 is not forgiving of poor follow-through. SSP and PCP rifles will let a shooter get away with a bit more "sloppy" after-shot movement than the springer will. Now, I know a shooter shouldn't have poor follow-through, but sometimes...near the end of a long day of matches..... Well, you get the point.

The reduction in lock times and much reduced moving mass required for every shot was, in my opinion, the greatest advance in air rifle technology since I started shooting in 1982. I can't believe I forgot to mention it. Good thing we're a community of competent shooters to catch each other's mistakes, huh?

As 'Dude also points out quite correctly, cocking the FWB 300 is a much easier and shorter stroke than the FWB 6xx series with it's long arm. In my estimation, the 300 is roughly half as easy to cock as the 6xx rifles. But still, as he also points out, it's not like a normal, full-grown man shouldn't be able to pump the 6xx without really any problem through a full match. If you're smaller... or weaker... or have some other mitigating factor, this might be an issue. YMMV and all that...

This also comes into play if you have any intentions to shoot in any position other than standing. Cocking a 300 while in prone is possible, but is a pain. Pumping a 6xx while in prone is damn near impossible without breaking position (unless you have the arm length of an orangutan). Cranking that long lever while in prone, sitting, or kneeling will likely lead to much physical pain over the course of a match.

Both the 300 and the 6xx series were designed for standing only...and I personally would never use them for any other position. Just sayin'...

On another note, the FWB 603 (and a very few late-model 602 examples...I happen to have one) do have a built-in recoil reducer just like the ones 'Dude mentions above. They are pretty standard fare with modern PCP guns. In fact, as I understand it, the recoil reducer on the 603 was ported directly to the FWB 70, though the FWB 700 uses a more refined version that was originally designed for the P44 AP. But now I'm picking at nats ;-)

Very interesting discussion. 30 years(I can't believe that!)I used to shoot air pistol with a fwb65. I stopped and did other things(including smallbore rifle). Got interested in 10m AR last year, so imagine my surprise at where things went while I wasn't looking. I do remember wondering why rifles had long barrels when my pistol with a short barrel could group into a pellet sized hole at 10m - I see many modern rifles have a short barrel with a shroud for balance.
Currently I shoot a 300S which I am constantly experimenting with to get the ergonomics right. I think being able to adjust the rifle easily would be the big advantage of a late model rifle, however once you get it right there shouldn't be much need for adjustments(?). I put my not being able to stack pellets to my lack of experience, rather than my rifle, although the comments re lock time makes a lot of sense - need to have good follow through, which can't be a bad thing to learn. Still don't know yet whether to upgrade to a 603 , P70 or a 700.........

Peashooter

The short barrels now a common feature of all the modern 10-m air rifles is to cut down 'Barrel Time'. This is so any movement by the shooter while the pellet is still in the barrel is cut to the minimum.

So we have lock time which is the measured time between pulling the trigger and the pellet starting to move in the barrel, and barrel time is the elapsed time the pellet spends in the barrel from start to exit. Total these two up and you can see how the manufacturers are linking these important factors into the design.
Some shooters have remarked that the lock time now is so fast that it takes them by surprise at least until they became accustomed to it.

The rifled barrel lengths average around 16.5 inches/425-mm on most makes of 10-m air rifle.
The rifling in the barrels at this length is 'fine' tuned at design stage to give the tightest groups at the number of twists/times length/times velocity/times pellet head size & weight. Move too far away from this formula and your groups will open up.
Each one of these factors is reliant on the others to combine into a highly accurate rifle. This is what FWB told me when I visited the factory a few years ago.

JSB

You've received some excellent information.

Re: FWB300. It was put on the back burner when Walther came out with its SSP Model LGR. For the same money, that's what I would look for.

Whether any of the above would have any real effect for your particular use is another story. You would not see a great increase in performance with any of the rifles mentioned.

I have shot the 300 and the 700. I didn't like the 300 solely because of the recoil. The rest of the rifle was definitely world class at the time. The 700 is simply the most comfortable rifle I have shot yet, due to being able to change every thing on it to fit me ( something a lot of wood stocked rifles cannot do for me). The lock time is rediculously fast it actually startled me the fist time I shot it causing me to jerk the shot. The sights on the 300 are now outdated but will still allow you to shoot 10's all day long. The sights on the 700 are great except that I personally hate the rear iris of it. So a simple iris switch for me and all is great. The only other SSP that I have experience with is the Diana 100 and it shot great for me it was the perfect compromise of cost, adjustability, and precision. So to me if you want a good, well balanced precision rifle, and are on a budget, get the SSP for sure, if you can afford it get the PCP but generally try to avoid the Spring powered rifles.

Re: FWB300. It was put on the back burner when Walther came out with its SSP Model LGR. For the same money, that's what I would look for.

It is true that the Walther LGR was the rifle that dethroned the FWB300 as the top of the line air rifle. If you find one, a word of caution, the pumping force on the LGR is very high. You had to be a decent sized person with pretty strong arms to pump the LGR for a 60 shot match and not show some signs of fatigue. That was where the FWB600 dethroned the Walther LGR, a set of linkages that significantly reduced force required to pump the lever.

Cheers,
'Dude