TargetTalk

Hi,

Whilst shooting finals, I scored a couple of 10s. Noticed that most were on the left of the 10 ring, resultin in lower 10s.

I wasn't sure whether to click left (meanin to move the shots to the right).

Any suggestions? Would you leave it alone, I mean, afterall it is a 10?

Thanks!

Depends on how you called the shot,
But one click may make you feel better.
I would leave it alone.

Trooperjake wrote:I would leave it alone.

I couldn't disagree more I'm afraid.

In a final every .1 counts. Adjust your sights as soon as you realise your group centre has moved (for whatever reason).

David:
Again it comes down to how you called the shots.
Sometimes in the middle of a final, you can think your self out of a match.
Very few of us can hold a 10.9
He does not say what the other shots were, only the 10's.
Also he just shot 60 record shots, that was enough time to get a good zero.
What could have changed. Is he pulling the trigger differently? did his position change? I do not think it was his pistol or pellet.
In a final I do not want to do anything different, that got me to the final.
After all this is a mental game, and you can think your way to last place.

Trooperjake wrote:Also he just shot 60 record shots, that was enough time to get a good zero.
What could have changed. Is he pulling the trigger differently? did his position change? I do not think it was his pistol or pellet.

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have been pistol or pellet. As most of the shots were to the left he was obviously doing something differently though.

Trooperjake wrote:In a final I do not want to do anything different, that got me to the final.
After all this is a mental game, and you can think your way to last place.

I agree that you don't want to do anything differently in the final. If you are doing something differently (most of the shots were to the left) then accept it and do the most obvious thing to maximise the score; adjust the sights. Don't try to analyze what you are doing differently, that won't help at that stage.

Pressure can do funny things to shooters. I agree that you need to learn to deal with it but, if you haven't, then don't worry about it during the final. That is something to worry about afterwards when points don't matter.

allergy wrote:Hi,

Whilst shooting finals, I scored a couple of 10s. Noticed that most were on the left of the 10 ring, resultin in lower 10s.

I wasn't sure whether to click left (meanin to move the shots to the right).

Any suggestions? Would you leave it alone, I mean, afterall it is a 10?

Thanks!

In this case, you would be much better off leaving it alone. If you move your rear sight to the left the bullet impact will also move left.

Cardinal rule: Always move the rear sight in the direction you want to move the shots on the target.

[quote
Cardinal rule: Always move the rear sight in the direction you want to move the shots on the target.[/quote]

True but the indicators on the sight vary with the make.

E.G. on a Steyr pistol turning the knob towards the "L" moves the POI to the right i.e. corrects a left error, and vice versa for the "R".

As a generalization European sights do the above whilst USA sights do the reverse which seems more logical. BUT NOTE THAT THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS.

David Levene wrote:In a final every .1 counts. Adjust your sights as soon as you realise your group centre has moved (for whatever reason).

I totally agree with David.

They make sights easily adjustable for a reason. The final isn't the place to be over thinking your technique, it's a place to be scoring as many points as possible and fine sight adjustments will help you achieve this.

I suppose it depends on how far left they were. I mean, were they scratch 10s? Or were they 10.3 or 10.4's?

If you called each shot dead center, and all the shots were scratch 10's, then yeah, move your sights, more than 1 click too, since 1 click moves around 1.5mm or so on most pistols.

Actually, if for whatever reason, _all_ your shots were in one area, then you should definitely move your sights.

Of course, there are not many competitions you can't win if you shot 10.0's all day. Even if they were all scratch 10.0's on the left side :-p

-trinity

trinity wrote: Of course, there are not many competitions you can't win if you shot 10.0's all day. Even if they were all scratch 10.0's on the left side :-p

-trinity

You'd almost certainly win at Olympic games with 60 10.0s. And you'd set a world record while doing it.

I agree with Trooperjake. If you call your shot slightly left and hit left, why move the sights? If you have no idea of the call, then I am not sure I would move then either. Sometimes you can satisfy yourself psychologically by moving a click because it makes you feel better, but in actuality you have changed little. The key is being able to call your shots. As for changing your technique for the final, sometimes you have to. If you are slow shooter, then you have to speed your technique up. If you are a fast shooter, you have to be ready to shoot as someone elses pace, tolerating the longer times between shot cycles while they announce scores.

Trooperjake wrote:David:
Also he just shot 60 record shots, that was enough time to get a good zero.
What could have changed. Is he pulling the trigger differently? did his position change? I do not think it was his pistol or pellet.

I can think of so many things that can change.

In all likelyhood you won't be shooting in the same bay, there are often subtle variations in light.

You may not even be on the same range i.e. Finals Range. Again different conditions require different sight settings

You will have cooled down from the match and slight variations with the tension in your body will cause your group to move.

Put simply, unless you have a group in the middle of the card, move your sights!

You may be doing something wrong or things may not feel right, but you can fix those later. When you're in the final you have 10 shots that all have to count.

Give them the best possible chance of being in the middle of the card.

Good luck

If the only reason for moving your sights is whether or not the shot is in the middle, you will be grabbing for clicks after every shot because most shooters go an entire match without shooting a single 10.9. Some sight picture/trigger control analysis is in order after each shot because that is the determining factor in whether or not the shot was a good one, not the shot value. Good scores are produced by proactive action, not by reacting to every off center shot with clicks. This is what I refer to as chasing 10's rather than producing them. Chasing 10's is a very frustrating way to shoot a match. The shooter will absolutely work themself to death for a less than desirable score.

BEA wrote:If the only reason for moving your sights is whether or not the shot is in the middle, you will be grabbing for clicks after every shot because most shooters go an entire match without shooting a single 10.9.

In a final it doesn't really matter what the value of the shot is when deciding whether to adjust the sights.

The most important thing is whether you have the same number of shots to the right of the centre as you do to the left (or up & down). If you do then it is unlikely that you will change your score (much) by adjusting the sights. Moving a left hand 9.5 to a 10.0 will also move a right hand 9.5 to a 9.0. The change in score is zero.

Where the big score advantage comes is where most of the shots are to one side of the centre. If, for example, you have 3 left hand 10.0s and 1 right hand 10.0, moving the 3 left hand shots even to 10.4 will result in the right hand 10 becoming a 9.6. Bad news in the qualifying stage as you've reduced the score from 40 to 39. Great news in the final though as you've increased the score from 40.0 to 40.8

This is a simplistic version, the final gain would be altered by the vertical spread. Assuming however an equal distribution of shots above and below the centre (if there isn't you should be adjusting vertically as well) then it won't be far out.

David Levene wrote:

Trooperjake wrote:I would leave it alone.

I couldn't disagree more I'm afraid.

In a final every .1 counts. Adjust your sights as soon as you realise your group centre has moved (for whatever reason).

I would totally agree with David, move the sights as soon as something becomes apparent. Only you can make the call as to whether you can do so after 1 or 2 shots or you need more. Don't forget you will have had 2 sets of sighters in the finals so you should have a feel for it then, but still if the shots move from the sighters to the finals then move the sights to grab the most points. Your brain needs to remain clear to focus on the process and sights not to be thinking about 'have I changed technique etc'.

Rob.

Hi everyone,

Thank you for your replies!!

In my haste, I am afraid I left out some details, which would have been useful in considering your replies.

1. Yes, this is air pistol and I am using a steyr LP10.
Hence, if my groupings (assuming I have perfect processes) are on the left, I would need to click left to move my next set of groupings to the right.

2. For me, the qualification and finals were held in two different firing points within the same range.

3. I shot high 9s and majority of low 10s (ranging from 10.1 to 10.4).

4. I can't recall the grouping on my 2 sighter cards. I think it was sprayed within the 9 ring.

-I noticed my 10s were on the left. The 10 ring is so small, I don't recall if those 10s were 'scratching shots'. Being inexperienced in finals, I wasn't sure if I should risk clicking left (see pt 1) . Hence, I wanted to find out what anyone else would have done in my position.

Here's a summary of responses (thank you!!):

**TrooperJack - leave it alone
#David Levine - every shot counts. to adjust sights
**Freepistol - leave it alone
Brian g - ?
#J-team - fine adjustments will help score points
#trinity - To adjust (for scratchin shots)
cgroppi - ?
#BEA - move the sights (but need to call your shots)
#lastman - unless you have a group in the middle of the card, move your sights!
#Robstubbs - move the sights as soon as something becomes apparent

** don't click = 2
# click = 6

The original post stated that he was not sure which direction to adjust the sight. During a final is not a good time to experiment. Learning which direction to turn and by how much, is for practice sessions.

allergy wrote:Hi everyone,

Thank you for your replies!!

In my haste, I am afraid I left out some details, which would have been useful in considering your replies.

1. Yes, this is air pistol and I am using a steyr LP10.
Hence, if my groupings (assuming I have perfect processes) are on the left, I would need to click left to move my next set of groupings to the right.

2. For me, the qualification and finals were held in two different firing points within the same range.

3. I shot high 9s and majority of low 10s (ranging from 10.1 to 10.4).

4. I can't recall the grouping on my 2 sighter cards. I think it was sprayed within the 9 ring.

-I noticed my 10s were on the left. The 10 ring is so small, I don't recall if those 10s were 'scratching shots'. Being inexperienced in finals, I wasn't sure if I should risk clicking left (see pt 1) . Hence, I wanted to find out what anyone else would have done in my position.

Here's a summary of responses (thank you!!):

**TrooperJack - leave it alone
#David Levine - every shot counts. to adjust sights
**Freepistol - leave it alone
Brian g - ?
#J-team - fine adjustments will help score points
#trinity - To adjust (for scratchin shots)
cgroppi - ?
#BEA - move the sights (but need to call your shots)
#lastman - unless you have a group in the middle of the card, move your sights!
#Robstubbs - move the sights as soon as something becomes apparent

** don't click = 2
# click = 6

Change me to "move the sights." I never hesitate to move my sights if the groups are not where I expect them. HOWEVER, I know which way to move my sights to get the desired results.

Coastwatcher wrote:The original post stated that he was not sure which direction to adjust the sight. During a final is not a good time to experiment. Learning which direction to turn and by how much, is for practice sessions.

That is not what he said, he said he wasn't sure if he should adjust them to move this shot fall to the right or leave them alone.

Rob.

Good attention to detail Rob, and Brian hit on that too. Now if we could just watch our sights that closely...