TargetTalk

Hi all,
while joking with a guy the other day I came up with the idea of a delay timer for his electronic trigger, with a configurable delay (e.g. 3 seconds).

You could pull the trigger while at the 12 o clock hold, then lower the pistol into the target area and the shot release would be perfectly smooth.

Just a joke at first, but would this be conform to the rules? Of course this is not what I really associate with shooting because clean trigger release is one of the challenges that belong to the sport.

Robert

I cannot think of any rule which specifically excludes such a system, especially if the timer was de-activated by removing the pressure on the trigger (on safety grounds).

I feel sure however that ISSF rule 6.3.3 would quickly be applied, followed by a ruling from the ISSF:-
"The Jury must decide all cases which are not provided for in the ISSF Regulations and Rules. Such decisions must be made within the spirit and intent of the ISSF Regulations and Rules. Any such decisions must be put into writing and sent to the ISSF Secretariat so that necessary rules may be clarified or changed."

IMHO such a system would not be within the spirit and intent of the rules.

I recall having this discussion with another shooter several years ago at our nationals We came to the conclusion that a random time delay would be useful for training purposes.

The issue was if the delay was 3 seconds, how would you manage a cease fire command from a range officer? You would have to be able to build in am abort function (like pull the trigger a second time to turn off the delay).

In the end, the idea of a delay timer was shelved.

Great idea though,

Brian

I'd think that this comes too close to the concept of a "release trigger" and, of course, those are explicitly not allowed due to the safety constraints.

Dr Jim

Dr. Jim wrote:I'd think that this comes too close to the concept of a "release trigger" and, of course, those are explicitly not allowed due to the safety constraints.

They are actually only mentioned in the shotgun rules (9.4.2.2) so don't apply to pistol.

With my Walther replacement circuit board I see numerous possibilities:

For training, imagine a trigger that fires at different pull weight with each shot.

For free pistol shooters who prefer light trigger weight but are shooting in cold weather; imagine a different two stage trigger: Pull the trigger to any desired weight and stop. A light signifies the trigger is armed and any additional pull weight fires.

A release trigger would be simple to implement.

A delayed release would be simple to implement. So would a delay that varies from shot to shot.

Those are quite insteresting ideas, particularly a random pull weight with each shot. However this could only be implemented over mechanical devices, not just a manipulation of the electric circuit.

The delay timer was only a mind game from begin with, of course we did not intend to actually implemend it. However I do not see a security problem, a cease fire command would normally allow for a delay of three seconds.

I think David nails it not being within the spirit and intent of the sport.

Does a "release trigger" mean that you pull the second stage and the shot is released as soon as you let go again? Now that is a gimmick that would require an abort button, but I think it could be easily implemented on an electronic trigger. Has this ever been tried on practice?

David Levene wrote:

Dr. Jim wrote:I'd think that this comes too close to the concept of a "release trigger" and, of course, those are explicitly not allowed due to the safety constraints.

They are actually only mentioned in the shotgun rules (9.4.2.2) so don't apply to pistol.

How would you measure the pull of a release trigger? ;-(

I can not find the specific rule (or guideline for EQ) that states the firing mechanism must be operated after lifting the weight but it is implied in 8.4.1.6.2

Brian G wrote:

David Levene wrote:

Dr. Jim wrote:I'd think that this comes too close to the concept of a "release trigger" and, of course, those are explicitly not allowed due to the safety constraints.

They are actually only mentioned in the shotgun rules (9.4.2.2) so don't apply to pistol.

How would you measure the pull of a release trigger?

You wouldn't need to on a 50m pistol.

I don't actually think that the OP's suggestion was close to a release trigger, even if the prohibition applied to pistol, but would have similar safety worries. That's why I mentioned a way of de-activating the timer in my first post.

Even though the pistol rules don't specifically ban release triggers, I would certainly stop one from being used on safety grounds. If the shooter didn't like it I would gladly give them the forms so they could appeal my decision.

Brian G wrote:I can not find the specific rule (or guideline for EQ) that states the firing mechanism must be operated after lifting the weight but it is implied in 8.4.1.6.2

A very clear indication of the intent of the rules can be found in the Training Manual - Pistol - for ISSF Range Officials & Judges.

Part of section 3.2, which deals with weighing triggers, states:-
"The trigger is then to be operated:
This is to ensure that the trigger was cocked, and that any dry-firing mechanism was not engaged."

Interestingly, the bold and underline appears in the original document.

David Levene wrote:

Brian G wrote:I can not find the specific rule (or guideline for EQ) that states the firing mechanism must be operated after lifting the weight but it is implied in 8.4.1.6.2

A very clear indication of the intent of the rules can be found in the Training Manual - Pistol - for ISSF Range Officials & Judges.

Part of section 3.2, which deals with weighing triggers, states:-
"The trigger is then to be operated:
This is to ensure that the trigger was cocked, and that any dry-firing mechanism was not engaged."

Interestingly, the bold and underline appears in the original document.

Thanks David, that's the easy way to find out! I knew I had seen it somewhere.