TargetTalk

I thought that some people might be interested in this blog from one of the first visitors to the Olympic ranges.

David Levene wrote:...this blog from one of the first visitors to the Olympic ranges.

Thanks for the heads-up; I'm very interested. The pictures are nice and the place looks lovely. Quoth the article:

This hall will play host to the 10 metre, 25 metre and 50 metre air rifle finals.

I'm sure looking forward to those 50 metre air rifle finals. :-)

BenEnglishTX wrote:I'm sure looking forward to those 50 metre air rifle finals. :-)

Beaten to it :D


That RF Pistol range must be one of the most heavily baffled "indoor" outdoor ranges I've ever seen. Barely counts as outdoors! Would some of our esteemed members with intl experience say whether that looks more or less sheltered than other Intl ranges they've seen/shot on? I guess it is only 25m, so there's never going to be that much sky anyway, but still...

Also, is it typical to shoot finals indoors, or indeed to use the same finals hall for air gun, 25m pistol and 50m rifle/pistol? Or is the blogger just wrong? That's a lot of reconfiguration, swapping between .22 and air targets and distances, especially for things like RF pistol where you need 5 targets per lane. The rimfire finals I've seen are usually outdoors no?


As for the building itself, I can't say I'm a fan of the red/pink. They look like the building has some sort of disease with warty pink pimples or pustules bulging and stretching the skin. I mean, the basic design I can live with, although I don't find it terribly evocative of... well... anything really, but specifically - where the hell did that red/pink come from?

Hemmers wrote:Would some of our esteemed members with intl experience say whether that looks more or less sheltered than other Intl ranges they've seen/shot on? I guess it is only 25m, so there's never going to be that much sky anyway, but still...

Some have heavier baffling, some have lighter. As it's in a built up area I would expect to see heavy baffling.

Hemmers wrote:Also, is it typical to shoot finals indoors, or indeed to use the same finals hall for air gun, 25m pistol and 50m rifle/pistol? Or is the blogger just wrong?

Sharing the finals hall is a typical arrangement. Airgun ranges must be indoors therefore Woolwich is not unusual by any means.

What is slightly more unusual is that there is a shared 10m and 50m qualifying range. When set up for 10m there is a demountable wall which is removed for 50m. The first 10m of the 50m range is therefore under cover.

Hemmers wrote:That RF Pistol range must be one of the most heavily baffled "indoor" outdoor ranges I've ever seen. Barely counts as outdoors! Would some of our esteemed members with intl experience say whether that looks more or less sheltered than other Intl ranges they've seen/shot on?

My recollection of Atlanta is that the 25M pistol facility was about the same size but divided into narrow bays, with room for 2 RF shooters at each bay. Each bay was separated from the next by a solid wall all the way out to the targets. The overhead baffles were less massive. My memory is consistent with what I see in the pictures, i.e. a sheltered, open-feeling firing line with a substantial patch of missing roof somewhere between the line and the targets.

As long as we're asking questions about top-level facilities, I wonder what that place is going to cost? I was told by someone involved in the planning at Atlanta (at least, they were in a position to be involved and represented to me that they were; I don't know for sure) that the RF bays cost about USD$125K per firing point to construct. Is there a public accounting available online for the costs in London? It sure would make for interesting reading.

BenEnglishTX wrote:My recollection of Atlanta is that the 25M pistol facility was about the same size but divided into narrow bays, with room for 2 RF shooters at each bay. Each bay was separated from the next by a solid wall all the way out to the targets. The overhead baffles were less massive. My memory is consistent with what I see in the pictures, i.e. a sheltered, open-feeling firing line with a substantial patch of missing roof somewhere between the line and the targets.

Bays of 2 RFP banks is certainly the more usual way of doing it, and is required by the ISSF rules.

As I understand it however, this open-plan range arrangement was designed in conjunction with, and certainly with the agreement of the ISSF. Not that there is likely to be much TV coverage of the qualification stages but I think the result for spectators will certainly be more impressive.

I cannot think that it will make any difference to the competitors: it'll just mean that the target party (changing control sheets and patching backing targets) will have to work a bit quicker in the Rapid Fire section of the 25m Pistol event.

I'm hearing that it will all be torn down and go away after the Olympics... That makes me very sad.

GCSInc wrote:I'm hearing that it will all be torn down and go away after the Olympics... That makes me very sad.

Sad that we will lose a top class range.

VERY happy that we will not have a white elephant to bankrupt one of our national associations.

David Levene wrote:What is slightly more unusual is that there is a shared 10m and 50m qualifying range. When set up for 10m there is a demountable wall which is removed for 50m. The first 10m of the 50m range is therefore under cover.

Unusual to the point it would provide an unfair advantage for competitors - that is to say, if someone shot a 600 or world record final?

I mean, it's impossible to compare two ranges, every site has it's own quirks, some have more baffling than others, some are quieter, some windier, but if 20% of the "outdoor" range is indoors (and indeed if the finals hall is entirely indoors), then do or should world records stand? Where's the cut-off? Presumably there's a limit in ISSF rules at which point they say "this isn't really outdoor anymore", or is it just case-by-case - they've approved this arrangement for the Olympics, so whatever is shot counts.

6.3.6.3.2 50 m ranges should have at least 45 m open to the sky.

Interesting. Since LOCOG cannot claim 6.3.6.3.3.1:

50m and 25m ranges should, whenever possible, be outdoor
ranges but may be exceptionally indoor or closed ranges if
required by legal or climatic conditions.

Even with British weather, the climate in July and August does not require excessively covered or indoor ranges, and there is no law against having it open - Ham & Petersham Rifle Club have a 100yd outdoor range, as does Wandsworth Rifle Club!

So what are the implications? Do any records that are shot not stand because the range is not compliant, or are they just glossing over the fact that (having built a £50m range for the explicit purpose of tearing it down within 12 months) it doesn't actually comply, but they'll just pretend it does...?

Hemmers wrote:So what are the implications?

Absolutely none. 6.3.5.1.1

Ah, a cop-out clause so they can wing it. Hadn't spotted that.

Both Athens and Beijing had 100% indoor finals halls so this is nothing new in London. The big difference is having all .22 and air events on the same range. Really it is a scheduling nightmare. As air events are first at the games, where/how do the .22 shooters train? Most countries are going to shoot at venues outside of London (or England altogether) for these events so the shooters can stay sharp.

Eric U

You guys across the pond may have gathered from Hemmers disposition (and he's not alone!) that we non international British shooters are a bit miffed (a stoical British understatement!) that we are paying $80M for a range which will be torn down after the games.
The is further compounded by the fact that it is not permitted for the venue to be used for any British domestic events during the period that it is in existance, so no British national shooters will even have the opportunity to shoot on our investment. Am I bitter? You bet I am!
Eric, the range will have been built just for the matches, there will have been no thought for training or use by any one else. If you guys trained at the National Shooting Centre at Bisley, 20 miles away, which is I think the only other electronic range within traveling distance (or the country!), where the event should have been that would be great! We will get no legacy for shooting from this Olympics, but we could at least get some by coming to watch and learn when you train.
Robin

There are some teams planning on training at Bisley, but the US isn't one of them. I've heard a few countries tossed around for us, but they all involve flying somewhere else.

From what I understand for the US Olympic shooting team, we will train in the as yet undecided location, fly in for team issue and opening ceremonies, and then all non-air shooters will fly back out. We will be testing this theory during the London test event in April. Sounds like a pain, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

Eric U

What happens to access to the Royal Greenwich Observatory during the games (and test events) and between the events? Will it even be possible to get to the facility on foot? What about handicapped access in a taxi?

It's true that there's no longer any timekeeping or astronomy at the RGO, and it's part of the National Maritime Museum organizationally; so you could give most of the staff a two week holiday (except for the crew needed to keep the green meridian laser running and dividing the London sky into east and west!) during the games. But it would be a pity if access were cut off for most of a year. To judge by the crowds when I used to take the DLR over there from my flat on the Isle of Dogs near Blackwall Station, it's a pretty big tourist draw.

I guess I'm also curious about the NMM access and getting to the (restored??) Cutty Sark.

David, I surely do understand why the Woolwich Arsenal shooting venue will be torn down; it would break the bank for any national shooting association (unless you want to give it to the American NRA), but it is a pity that here won't be at least some period where British shooters (and visitors) could use the place, if only to daydream.

pete

--pete

peterz wrote:What happens to access to the Royal Greenwich Observatory during the games (and test events) and between the events? Will it even be possible to get to the facility on foot? What about handicapped access in a taxi?

It's true that there's no longer any timekeeping or astronomy at the RGO, and it's part of the National Maritime Museum organizationally; so you could give most of the staff a two week holiday (except for the crew needed to keep the green meridian laser running and dividing the London sky into east and west!) during the games. But it would be a pity if access were cut off for most of a year. To judge by the crowds when I used to take the DLR over there from my flat on the Isle of Dogs near Blackwall Station, it's a pretty big tourist draw.

I guess I'm also curious about the NMM access and getting to the (restored??) Cutty Sark.

I don't pretend to be an expert on access to landmarks during the games but, as far as I understand it, there won't be any problems.

peterz wrote:David, I surely do understand why the Woolwich Arsenal shooting venue will be torn down; it would break the bank for any national shooting association (unless you want to give it to the American NRA), but it is a pity that here won't be at least some period where British shooters (and visitors) could use the place, if only to daydream.

I am guessing but would imagine that Sius Ascor might have something to say about the equipment being used between the World Cup and the Olympics. They have signed a contract to provide backup during the WC, Olympics and Paralympics. If they have to send men over for an extra or extended period for testing/maintenance/repairs then someone's got to pay for it.

Similarly, you can't just open up a range for people to shoot on. Our Health and Safety laws would insist on full facility staffing, that's before adding in security.

Then you've got the possibility of additional general maintenance.

Also, a road running through the complex has to be closed for security when shooting is going on.

As I said, just guessing. I am sure there are other reasons.

peterz wrote:What happens to access to the Royal Greenwich Observatory during the games (and test events) and between the events? Will it even be possible to get to the facility on foot? What about handicapped access in a taxi?


--pete

The RGO was accessible during the test event in August. (Modern Pentathlon).

I suspect London will be just about gridlocked for the whole of the games, any one who has travelled to London on business on a regular basis will know that the London travel infrastructure is already at best at full capacity, and regularly over, and in the Olympics? Just make sure you are paying the extortionate central london Hotel rates and can walk there other wise you will spend more time traveling that watching.

As for the range, people can always find reasons to stop us even using it or for planning for a legacy for shooters in Britain, but that would have taken a bit of initiative and the will to do it and the London Olympic group don't have it.
Robin