TargetTalk

Look at this link http://www.gun-tests.com/issues/12_8/fe ... 420-1.html
I may see it costing a grand, but not 2K or more. Am I the only one who thinks so?
Mike

Targetsport wrote:Look at this link http://www.gun-tests.com/issues/12_8/fe ... 420-1.html
I may see it costing a grand, but not 2K or more. Am I the only one who thinks so?
Mike

Mike, that article is almost 12 years old. European match guns went up in cost a few years back when the value of the Euro hammered the USD.
http://www.xe.com/ucc/convert/?Amount=1&From=EUR&To=USD

Unless you're a master level shooter with a lot of time in grade, you will likely shoot just as well with the Benelli MP95e at half the price of the Pardini SP. Larry Carter sells it.
http://tinyurl.com/4f5vdbh

I bought a Pardini SP for AU$2100 and I'm no expert. When I was researching their prices seemed reasonable and comparable to other guns of similar standards.

My reasoning is that I didn't want to outgrow my pistol and need to upgrade. I love shooting and will still be shooting in 50 years, and I hope to become very good at it. All guns shoot straight so it's a matter of what works for you.

I'll never sell my Pardini and will pass it on to my son or grandson or daughter or whatever. Why not spend a bit more cash upfront to get something that is excellent quality?

I did search on this forum and learned that Ruger Mark III has same precision as Pardini SP. It only costs $500 US. Now one may say Pardini has better trigger, ok if we add mechanical trigger it would only cost extra $300 also add Grip for $200. If we are talking about what it takes to make precision sports pistol you can see that one made in the USA would only cost $1000. Only explanation that I could come up is that they are just overpriced because someone is willing to pay the price. I'm sure if they were priced right more pistols would sell.

Targetsport wrote:Only explanation that I could come up is that they are just overpriced because someone is willing to pay the price. I'm sure if they were priced right more pistols would sell.

That's the beauty of a Free Market system. If you have a product or service and price it too high, no one will pay. Too low and you make no profit (or have no time to do anything but work). Those pistols have been on the market long enough that the prices are settled, the companies are happy selling for the prices set and don't think that enough "more" would sell to cover the loss from a lower price. It's a niche market pistol, not some "tactical" blob of a thing that the US market is all caught up in.

Targetsport wrote:I did search on this forum and learned that Ruger Mark III has same precision as Pardini SP. It only costs $500 US. Now one may say Pardini has better trigger, ok if we add mechanical trigger it would only cost extra $300 also add Grip for $200. If we are talking about what it takes to make precision sports pistol you can see that one made in the USA would only cost $1000. Only explanation that I could come up is that they are just overpriced because someone is willing to pay the price. I'm sure if they were priced right more pistols would sell.

I don't know how many of the readers of this forum would outshoot me shooting my MG2E RF with a Ruger MK III. I guess it would be a great majority. I don't shoot THAT much worse with my "new" Ruger MK I than I do with the electronic marvel, except (I'd say of course) in rapid fire. But, there is the but. With the MG, it's easier, more enjoyable (this is the biggest difference), scores are a bit better even in slow fire, and most of all, I KNOW the limits are set by me. And, with the extremely consistent trigger and very well fitting grip, there are fewer surprises like "what on earth does that nice group do THERE?"

And then, in rapid fire the slide dampers, moving weights in some guns, low barrel line etc. really make a difference. Also in std 10 s string.

I'm not saying $2000 or even worse, Eur 2000 is a nice price for a gun. It's expensive. I ended up with the MG, not only because it was cheaper, I just liked the way it feels and shoots. But then, I also bought a Ruger MK I, although for quite different use cases. For example, you don't holster an MG or a Pardini. Nor is it easy to install a suppressor.

But if the requirements are not at higher competition levels, you'll do fine with a Ruger or maybe a Buckmark. You'll end up spending somewhat more than just for the base gun, and if in the end you find you'd like to have a better suited gun for standard or rapid, it's either wasted (if you don't need the cheaper gun or get a decent price for it if sold) or you need to have other use for the different gun. Depending on the legal environment, the hassle of buying guns may be big enough to warrant buying the best you can afford early in the process, meaning whenever you purchase your first gun.

Mika

Targetsports. Purchase your Ruger. Then start competing with it!!!

Ruger was used just for comparison, demonstrating that you can produce high quality competition pistol for under $!000. I hear your points but as mentioned above having low barrel line or moving weights don’t contribute to major price increase. My point is that it does not take $2000 to make such gun available. Some blame Dollar value compare to Euro, fact is that European car like Mercedes that sold for $70,000 in year 2000 have not doubled in price today. You can purchase much better Mercedes in 2011 and it will cost you same as 2000 year model. Again point is that there is nothing out there that would justify price doubling for this pistols in last six year. By the way several years ago I met an engineer that showed me prototype .22 cal pistol that had no vertical recoil at all. It would only cost $200 to make that addition to any competition pistol. Can you get that on any gun now? No. Do you know why? Because they can sell you something for $2500 that should cost half of that.

targetsports, I currently shoot a Ruger MKIII target, competition grade. It costs $600 so it is pretty cheap. That is one of the most accurate 22's I have shot to date. The gun will group really close to 1" with cci std velocity at 50yds. I don't know how much more accurate you need because it will personally out shoot me and most masters at 50yds. I personally know experts and masters that are shooting Rugers. The main reason why they shoot Rugers is because they are accurate and super reliable.

Targetsport wrote:Ruger was used just for comparison, demonstrating that you can produce high quality competition pistol for under $!000.

High quality? Compared to what?

Why do you think that nobody has produced a $1000 pistol that's used at world level. If it was easy as you suggest then I'm sure it would have been done by now.

Don't confuse accuracy with being easy to consistently shoot very high scores with.

Sure there will be people who will tell you that they are shooting higher scores with a cheaper pistol than they were with a top class pistol. Maybe the top class pistol(s) they tried did not suit them. The question to ask is how many of them are consistently shooting world class scores with the cheaper guns.

None of the high end competition guns are mass produced. I guess many of the cheap guns wouldn't be cheap if their production runs were the sameas those of the high end pistols.

The interesting point is thw huge price increase. I don't have quite as good guesses about that. And it's not just guns. In the ammo it's even more pronounced. Price of metals is often blamed, but it's not really a good explanation, as the biggest increases are in the .22's. Just the ammo with least metals.

Mika

If you have been long enough in this sport you would know that Pardini and all other competition pistols used to sell for around $1000 that means all of them produced quality pistols at that price. Problem is that manufactures used currency exchange rate to blame price increase. In my previous post I used car example and you can see that it did not double car price.

No wonder why same manufacturers complain that sport is not popular and there are not many followers. What do you think how many kids would play baseball if the baseball bet price went up to $1000, it would probably become most unpopular sport and eventually no one would play it.

Greed is not a very good thing.

Sorry, I just don't buy the greed thing. Manufacturers have to make a profit or they're history. Mass marketers like S&W do not make niche market guns except in their custom shop, and the prices there will make your eyes water. They make many thousands of units so they can afford to make a smaller margin per unit.

Pardini, Morini, Matchguns need to make their profits from a market that is both niche and competitive. All of their profits need to come from the sale of a very limited number of units. If any one of those manufacturers could be profitable at a lower price point while making guns of equivalent quality they would do so and either dominate the market or force their competitor's prices down to match. If there really is an egregious inflation of the prices and a collusion between the manufacturers to keep it that way, then another competitor could slip in. The economic barriers to entry is not nearly as steep as for many manufacturers - one competent designer/gunsmith and a business partner could start up and there is no 800 pound gorilla in the market that could crush the new entry a-borning, as it were. That's the free market way.

Sure, the Ruger can be made competitive, but not at the factory. The lower bore line is not just a cosmetic feature - it places constraints on the working bits inside, both on their design and the tolerances required to fit them into a limited space. And the high end guns also have adjustability designed in which costs more. The Ruger can be improved to suit you (hopefully) and still cost less than $2K, but you will not be able to make the functional adjustments that are part of the package in high end guns. And you will still have to live with some of the design compromises that Ruger made to have a gun that is competitive in the mass market instead of a gun designed primarily to be competitive on the line.

IMHO, of course.


Roger

Targetsport wrote:If you have been long enough in this sport you would know that Pardini and all other competition pistols used to sell for around $1000 that means all of them produced quality pistols at that price.

Oh I think I've been around for a while.

I'm looking at an old UK magazine where about the best prices (in GB Pounds) were:-

Walther GSP .22 £346
Hammerli 208 £559
Igi (pre-FAS) .22 £379

Round the $1000 (+/- 100-150) would therefore have been about right.

The date on the magazine? April 1980.

David I’m not going as far as 1980, I’m talking only 8 years ago these guns could be purchased for very affordable price. They all had 100% price increase.

Roger makes valid point but if you consider that factor to justify such price increase there should be some point that one would ask question. I need to make living and I should sell my pizza for $150. It only costs me $5 to make it but I need to make profit. Well lets look at their profit. Pistol with electronic trigger costs $500 more than mechanical trigger. My friend who specializes in electronics attempted to replicate it and him purchasing everything at retail price and only producing one trigger cost him $36. I think even Roger would agree with me that it would cost manufacturer even less to make it in quantity. Going back to greed somehow either that is the only explanation that would make any sense or manufactures just don’t have any idea how to stay profitable and how to grow their market share by supporting the industry. If I have to sell you a pizza that costs me $5 to make it for $150 and competition pistol maker has to sell you trigger that costs him $20 for $500 does this tell you something? is it about surviving or is it something else?

Well, you may also ask why American made .45 cost's so much, when a made in China Norinco .45 is only $495 ?

Labor cost in China is low but labor cost in Europe is not more than American and we know that comparable pistol can be produced in US at the half price.

I'm starting to get a wiff of Troll here. "Targetsport" has only posted in this one topic, is trying to stir up the pot (only complaints/gripes, no Real problem/issue/want of assistance) and has offered nothing of any value. I can turn on my TV if I want endless moaning about how things aren't like they "should" be.



Trolls vanish when not fed or banned, though I don't think it's to that point.... yet.

Targetsport wrote:Labor cost in China is low but labor cost in Europe is not more than American and we know that comparable pistol can be produced in US at the half price.

Are you talking about the top end guns or the .45s.

In either case, if they can be then why aren't they?

If you can’t understand how you would benefit from this or what you are getting out of this discussion, makes me think that there is not point to even talk about it.
Issue is that such gigantic price increase in such a shot time does not benefit anyone. Top shooter will get pistol or rifle regardless of the price. On the other hand many new potential future shooter will have less and less chance to get in the sport because of financial reasons. If you love this sport you would not find million reasons to defend this tendency.