TargetTalk

I own an 1813 super match. I'm moving up in the shooting world and want to make additions to my rifle. I currently own the original sight set and dont have a bloop tube. I have the original butt plate, but I am missing the screws to the hook extension. Any suggestions?

Keep in mind that I was thinking of putting a beesting tuner on it as well as a tec-hro FUSION buttplate as it has many unique adjustments. I also wanted to put on a different sight set but havent decided yet on what I need.

Thanks

It would help to give a more informative answer if you could make your question a little more specific. Do you want feedback on your choice of extension tube/tuner and buttplate, or more general suggestions for a new buttplate/tube/rearsight?

I personally like the System gemini buttplates (hps-tr.com). These are very well engineered, can be adjusted to fit just about anyone, but don't come cheap. Many shooters here in Britain use a Gemini butt, some 3-P shooters have one for each position.

As for tubes, I've seen the beesting on the web, and I like the idea of a lighter tube. I use a 6in tube as I find a longer tube makes my rifle muzzle heavy, so a lighter tube would get around this. I have to say that tubes are not a magic cure-all. Many good prone shooters do not use a tube, including the current World Champion. Tubes do make any wobble in your hold much more visible, and do need to be cleaned frequently. However if your hold is pretty good, you may benefit, and if it doesn't work you just have to take the tube off.

As for rearsights, is yours wearing out, or do you just want something newer and fancier? The Anschutz 7002 is quite popular. Many US prone shooters recommend Warner and Gates (now back in production??). I'd be tempted by the Centra 10/50 if asked.

Here is the advice you probably don't want to hear:

Leave the gun alone, and shoot it totally stock. Forget the tuners and bloop tubes and whatever gizmos are currently in vogue. Buy whatever parts/bolts you need to restore it perfectly stock.

Probably 90% of these and most other top of the line Anschutz rifles will win Olympic medals right out of the box, with very good matched ammo, and a very good shooter.

Spend your time and money on training. It will pay far higher dividends than chasing the latest trick-of-the-week gadget for your gun. In fact, trying too many things will probably impede your progress.

Jeff

I am going to split the difference on the two responses offered. First, it would help to know if you are shooting prone only or 3P. Then what is your current performance level?

If you are shooting 3P and knocking out 1050/1200 or prone and shooting 560/600 then take metermatch's advice, make the gun pretty much stock and put your money into some decent training ammo and a training/performance journal and get yourself out to the range and actually use the journal to analyze your progress. As much as we would like, you cannot buy points.

On the flip side, if you are shooting 1150s 3P or 590s prone then some carefully considered upgrades may help you. I can also say that over the years I have sold or tossed numerous ideas that looked great on paper but did not work so well for me on the range. Now I use a MEC Free position buttplate, it works better for me than the late style 18xx butt plate but that does not mean it would work for you. Is it perfect? no.

As for bloop tubes, if you have to use a tube (I do because of old eyes) get a tuner tube setup. Now, getting anything out of a tuner also assumes you have started with the rifle dialed in for the best bedding torque. BTW have you glass/pillar bedded the rifle? You will get more bang for the buck from a good bedding job than a tuner. After the bedding and tuning the bedding then worry about the tuner.

I have not seen a beesting in upper level competition. Have you looked at Eric U's tubes?

http://shop.uptagrafftllc.com/Sight-Ext ... bes_c3.htm

Sorry no carbon fiber there but I can say Eric's tubes work very well but you have to be willing to put the time into setup and tuning.

As for sights, the major players have been mentioned, Anschutz, Gates, Centra. Unless you have some really compelling reason for a different sight (need one that is not a long perhaps) it is tough to go wrong with the Anschutz 7002. You just have to decide if you want 10 to 20 clicks per turn. Nothing fancy there, just a straight forward popular sight.

Bottom line, unless you have a specific reason for adding or changing a piece of equipment, you are like best leaving it alone.

Cheers,
'Dude

I hate to always be the contrarian, but very few stock off-the-rack factory match rifles are capable of winning an Olympic medal. Applies to all the brands. This is especially true for prone but is also for 3p. Yes, many of the worlds best shooters have unmodified factory rifles. But to think that they aren't very carefully selected for that top ranked shooter or constantly searched for by that shooter is pretty naive. The rest of us use upgraded or modified rifles to get the kind of accuracy necessary to compete at the world level.

All that aside, like 'dude and others have said, it depends on your skill level whether you need widgets to try and get the last few points. Usually a lot of range time with good ammo will get you results faster than trying to buy points with gimmicks. Once you actually get to be pretty good, you will know whether you need any of the accessories or not. I use a plain old 1813 stock with original buttplate on my rifles and I know I don't need one of the new-fangled buttplates (or aluminum stocks for that matter).

Of the things you mentioned, I'd probably look at sights first. Get yours tested. If the clicks are true and repeatable, then you don't really need new sights.

Eric U

i currently shoot a 1560 to 1570 out of 1600. I have been shooting for 3 1/2 years now but have only had my rifle for about a year. Ive shot at Camp Perry twice and have been sponsed both times. I shot on the prone team this year and won 1st place at Perry. Shot with George Harris in the mentor match at Perry and came in 2nd. We shot an 798 out of 800, i dropped 1 he dropped 1. I've shot with David Cramer, Justin Tracy, as well as Terry Glen and Bill Neff and have acquired a lot of facts and shooting advice. I do 3p air and prone rifle and 3p rifle.

Hope this helps

BAtarget

Im looking for suggestions as well as feedback from what I've seen and chosen. I don't know much about the different flavors of tubes, butt plates, and sights.

1560-1570 in NRA prone is not great (sorry for being blunt). I think the first rifle modification that might help is a GOOD bedding job. Pillar and glass bed it. It will make it more consistent and reliable.

Have you tested ammo? That could be a big area for improvement.

I personally like the 7002 sight from Anschutz.

I have one of Eric U's 12 inch tuner tubes. I like it But it isn't magic. it helps tighten up the groups a little bit, but it wont take a rifle shooting 17mm groups and turn them into <12mm groups. I have a 2013 with the 500mm barrel, so I have to have a bloop tube.

I would focus most on range time. Or get a SCATT and use it.
Matt

Mind you, the Beesting website offers several reasons for using a tuner:

Would you like to be more patient on the line but pain in the sling hand causes you to shoot quickly? Maybe you think your rifle can perform better and you want to shoot smaller groups? What if you simply want to give your rifle a sharp, space-age look? The BeeSting bloop tube tuner is just what you’re looking for!

And not all of them have to do with improving your shooting.

Sorry for being blunt, but if you are shooting 1560-1570 NRA prone, there is a serious fundamenmtal flaw here.

The most likely problems are:

1) The rifle itself is messed up. Solution: return it back to stock condition. Get a competant gunsmith to help if necessary. There are no factory top of the line guns released from the factory that shoot that bad. Every 1813, 1811, 1911, 1913, 2013, etc I have ever seen is capable of 1600's easily. It is a huge target. If the gun is sound, and you pay a lot of money for a fancy bedding job, it is only going to turn a 1570 shooter into a 1571 shooter.

2) Bad ammo matched to gun. Try some other lots of ammo. If unsure about your skills, have a master level shooter help you. Which brings me to the 3rd and nasty answer:

3) It is you. If you have never been better than a 1570 shooter, and don't have other shooting experience (such as being an Expert or Master in Highpower), then I would say get some coaching help. Have a known good shooter try your gun. If the problem is you, accessories for the gun are only going to empty your wallet.

The first step in figuring out many problems is go back to step one. You are asking about changing/adding things to the rifle to make it shoot better. Save your money on the gadgets. Return the rifle to stock condition. The Germans really do know how to build a fantastic gun.

Everybody is looking for that $50 accessory that will get them that extra 20 points. I think you might be spending money needlessly.

First, have somebody else shoot your gun. You could also try someone elses' gun. That should tell you everything you need to know.

I highly doubt it is the gun, unless it has been abused. The ammo is a good thing to look at.


Sorry

Jeff

'target

As you have gathered by now the standards for top level prone shooting are quite high. When I gave some example scores on my first post I was referring to the A-50 or A-51 target. The ten ring on the A-51 target (50 yard international target) is just a touch smaller than the X ring on the A-23 target (NRA 50 Yard target). Before you start worrying about gizmos you need to be able to reliably clean the A-23 target with say 16-17X per target with iron sights. Then working with things like bloop/tuner tubes or ultra fancy and ultra expensive butt plates may help you find a point or X or two.

First, this started with a discussion about butt plates because yours was not complete, contact either Neal Stepp at International Shooter Service (817) 595-2090 or Champion Shooters Supply (800) 821-4867 and get the screws you need to make your existing butt plate whole. Even if you pay some obnoxious price for a single screw in a fine pitch metric thread it is still going to be way the hell cheaper than a new butt plate assembly.

Now, lets go back to Eric U's comment about making sure your sights are OK. If you ask around your local range someone may have or know of someone who has a sight checking jig. If not ask on these boards and I am sure someone can tell you who to call or send your sights to. Again, way the hell cheaper than a new set of sights.

Now, in your sights, do you have a good adjustable rear iris with a few filters? If not, that would likely be money well spent. For the front sight, this is a standard length barrel apparently I will assume the old standby Anschutz front sight. This is a M-18 thread by the way. Get yourself a set of the Anschutz front apertures, and try a few sizes. Use something that seems a little larger than you think it should be. I am not crazy about adjustable front apertures but that is just me, others love them. Traditional fixed front apertures can't get all squirrely on you, they either work or they don't.

Next, how are your eyes? Near sighted? Far sighted? Astigmatism? It may be the best dollars you can spend will be on an eye exam and a set of shooting frames with appropriate prescription so you can see the front sight clearly. Trying to shoot, expecially prone, with regular glasses is something of a recipe for frustration.

Finally get yourself a case of decent training ammo (you can ask about that too) and get to the range. Dollars invested in training will gain you points faster than anything you can buy in a catalog.

Good Luck
'Dude

To all,

I dont shoot the best ammo out there but it works. I shoot sk standard plus for practice and for 50 yard and 50 meter targets. I use Eley Match for 100 yards, which I tested. The rifle shoots fine, I've shot A-50 targets and have shot groups inside the 10 ring, and ive cleaned A-36 indoor targets. I can't use tenex or match on a regular basis because the cost of ammo is too damn expensive. If i could, i would.
I have shot a Remington model 37 with a diopter and shot a 1584-1600 in ok conditions.

I went and checked your scores from camp perry this year. It looks like you really need to work on your wind reading. Do you lose most of your points at 100?

This past weekend I shot a Dewar course at about 2pm. It was REALLY windy. I shot a 200-20 and a 198-7. I am not happy about my score, but I am working on my wind reading at 100.

If you can shoot a 200-12 in Camp perry wind (thats the posted score that you shot at the mentor match) followed by a 197-8, that shows that you need to work on your wind reading.

If the rifle is the problem, I would bed it first. About sights, get a machinist to test yours. (I am sure there is one in your club).

What front sight size do you shoot?
Matt

'target

From your discussion of specific achievements it is likley the rifle is fine and the ammunition combination is fine too. Being at 50 ft, the A-36 target is not much of a test of target rifle accuracy.

Don't feel bad about not shooting Tenex, that is expensive stuff and honestly many years back I had a smokin hot lot of Eley Practice 100 (about equal to todays Eley Club) that I used in competition. It is all in how the ammo shoots in your rifle, not the label on the box. SK is fine practice ammo. At some time or another, most of us here have seen someone shooting bulk ammo purchased at the discount store through a target rifle and not understanding why it would not group, which is why the subject of decent practice ammo comes up a fair bit.

When you were shooting the Remington 37 with the diopter did the front sight seem significantly clearer than with no diopter? If so that is a strong indicator that you need some vision correction to get the front sight pretty much as crisp as possible. It is OK to have the target a little fuzzy but the front sight has to be in focus.

Looking at specific accomplishments a good group here a clean target there, your performance goal should be improved consistency. As I mentioned in an earlier post before you worry about some of the gizmos you need to be able to reliably clean the A-23 target with a high X count. Now, when you shoot a good target...STOP... think about how you felt when you were shooting that target. Study the sling and rifle for their exact location. How are your feet and legs placed? Study what is going on on the range. Mostly refect on your mental state and how things looked as each shot went down the line. The more you think about the elements that went into a strong perfromance the greater the likelihood you will repeat that strong performance.

Cheers,
'Dude

I use a 4.4 in a 18mm sight.

'Dude,

I really appreicate the advice. My front sight is fuzzy. I have already planned to get shooting glasses as my contacts don't perform very well for me. Also, I can read wind very well. I dropped the points, I dropped, because of simple error that I can blame myself on. And most of the points that I do drop are my own fault. I probably lose the same amount of points at 50 yards and 100 yards.

4.4 is really big if you are not using a diopter. I shoot a 4.0 with a 35(or so) inch sight radius.

I have come to the conclusion that ANY points you drop are the shooter error. If you loose one to wind it is because you misread the wind. If you loose one because of ammo its because you didn't test enough. If you loose one because of your rifle its because you didn't do what you needed to keep it in top form. If you loose one because of vision its because you didn't do what you needed to do. The list goes on and on.

From everything you have said, it looks like you need to shoot more and get a mental program in place. Do you have a SCATT/Noptel/Rika? You should probably get one.

If you still think you need to modify your rifle, bedding would be the first option I would consider.

If it matters, I have a 500mm 2013 action in a MEC stock with TEC-HRO buttplates with an Upta Tuner (12 inch) with a 7020 sight set. All the gizmos and stuff don't make the shooter. I still have the same issues with prone as I did with a simpler rifle.
Matt

'target

Shooting with contacts can be tough. I hear two schools of thought, the first is that there are some levels of vision correction that can only be done with contacts so that can give you clearer sight. The second is that since contacts float on the surface of the eye something is always changing so from one blink to the next your vision is never quite the same, this can cause problems with getting the exact same sight picture each time.

Now, for a standard length barrel a good place to start your vision correction for shooting is your normal distance correction +0.25 to +0.50 diopters. For many people this is about the sweet spot to make the front sight as crisp as possible without overdoing it and making the target un-necessarily blurry. On that topic, are you using a rear iris? If you have the rear iris opened too far it can make things blurry as well. Start with the iris closed down and start opening, at first the image will be getting brighter then at some point it quits getting brighter and things start getting blurry, back off just a hair from that point. For most lighting conditions people end up around 1.3 to 1.4mm, for poor lighting it can easily be larger. Eric U has some interesting disussions on this.

Anyhow, you can get shooting frames from the vendor of your choice but I have very good luck getting lenses from Neal Stepp. He understands the process and the needs and has very good prices on the lenses. ($42 a piece for the 23mm lenses last time I bought some.) Some optomitrists don't have a problem cutting the small round lenses, mine could not deal with it which is how I found Neal.

Now, that front aperture!!! OMG, Grizzly has already pointed out that 4.4 is a little large. I will even say huge. Two things, the aiming black on the NRA targets is a bit smaller than the ISSF/USAS targets so that would normally call for a slight reduction in front aperture size. There are a few rules of thumb, first you want the bull to remain inside the front aperture during the best part of your hold. With a 4.4 shooting prone on a A-23 target I expect you could maintian the bull inside the aperture during the best part of your hold during a major earthquake. A little too large is better than a little too small but FOR PRONE try something on the order of 3.2-3.6. This will give you a decent band of white around the bull without the bull swimming in the circle or the aperture hanging off the edge of the target frame. For standing and kneeling you often want a larger aperture as the base hold is not as stable. These numbers assume a standard length barrel.

The other rule that works well for prone is you like the aperture to be 1.5 times the apparent diameter of the bull. The math works out to something even smaller that what I have suggested in the previous paragraph so I will stick with my discussion of try something on the order of 3.2-3.6.

Good Luck
'Dude

Gents,
A lot of great advise and well directed questions.
Chris