TargetTalk

Hey Ya'll

A chance encounter with a Match 64 brought back fond memories of my youth, punching holes in paper for hours at a time in a NRA marksmanship program. After much searching I found this website! I must say, I have many questions.

I have 2 kids 9 and 13 who shoot occasionally with the local 4H shooting program. The program is mostly bench shooting with Savage mk I in the summer and Daisey air rifles in the winter, with a bit of archery and shotgun thrown in. The average age of the kids is about 10 and there are maybe 6 regularly attending. The program is twice a month and runs year round.

In my search I have found only one youth 3p (4p) program anywhere close to where I live and that is about 2 hrs away. I am no road warrior, so that is out of the question. I have voluteered to go to 4H instructor training and help with the program but after reading on this forum, I am not expecting much in the way of 3p instruction. I intend to order Ways Of The Rifle and the NRA rulebook. I currently have no .22s so I am planning on buying a Marlin 60d as a "fun" rifle for the kids. I have looked at new 1903s as well as other used Anschuz rifles and at this time it is not practical for me to drop that kind of money to explore a possible hobby for me and the kids.

What suggestions do you have as far as stepping the situation up a bit? One suggestion I have seen here is to go to a NRA level I class, unfortunately there are none that I saw in New England. The guys that are running the 4H program are approachable, but the last thing I want to do is to appear as though I want to take over the program. Once I am qualified as an instructor I can check out the clubs guns or purchase through the CMP. At that time I would like to get my kids shooting 3p (4p) on a weekly basis outside of the club. Are there any modification I can do to MkI to improve it? I saw on the biathlon page that someone is restocking MkIs for biathlon.

Too many questions at once. I know!

Cheers, Philip

Philip ... welcome to the 4-H community!
I think we all start out as you are ... wanting to help, but not wanting to step on the toes. I started helping with archery, and someone mentioned that the rifle coach was going to move on as his kid had aged out. I went to a meeting and found out they were going to hang around, but they mentioned a need for an air rifle coach ... and the learning began ... I personally shoot shotgun a lot more than rifle, but there was the "need". now I run the rifle project with two other Level-I coaches.

I would whole-heartedly recommend that this should be a priority in the next year. The books are great (in my mind ... required), but so much can be learned in the two day school. If you are having trouble finding one call Marcus Raab ... he is in charge of the coach schools and see if you can get a few folks and host one in your area.

Marcus Raab
NRA National Coach Trainer-Rifle
National Rifle Association
Voice: 703.267.1589
Fax: 703.267.3999

Here in NM it is difficult to get the folks that run the 4-H program to use the coach certification programs, so we must usually fill in on some of the schools held for the JROTC programs. No to bum you out, but plan for a bit of "N.I.H." syndrome in 4-H.

Here is my point of view on the programs for 3-P air and smallbore:

I feel that starting out it is easier and less expensive to begin a 3-P air program. Guns are less expensive, ammo (pellets) are plentiful & cheap, and the CMP is VERY helpful in educational materials. You can also look around and maybe find a facility where you can practice year round.

Once the kids are coming up to speed on air, then you can maybe look at moving to smallbore rifle. We use Izhmash CM-2's as our club rifles for 3-P shooting. (http://mtguns.com/cm-2.htm) They are relatively inexpensive, take a decent amount of abuse and shoot well enough (~1.1-1.4 MOA at 100 yds) to get kids into the Junior Olympics. They are single shot rifles while the Savages we have access to are mag-fed for silhouette ... not really sure how these compare to the CM-2s in accuracy.

The primary thing you need on a smallbore is to be able to work on the trigger. Our CM-2's are set "heavy" for a competition rifle at about 1.5 lbs (Olympic class rifles such as the Anschutz are in oz), but still perform well. Only our most experienced shooters fire the annies, and they are personally owned (1907s, 1912s, & 1913's).

Keep asking questions here in this forum .... there are many world class coaches and shooters that drift in & out of this "Youth" forum and have always had great advise for those of us who do not come from rifle shooting backgrounds.

Again, probably my best advise to you is to look at starting an air program where you can shoot year round, indoors. We have permission to shoot in our county fair building where we have pretty much a permanent setup ... we only have to tear it down for other events a few times a year.

Joel

Where in New England are you located? I'm in NJ and hear from time to time about classes in the general area.

I haven't looked at a schedule lately but if it's in driving range I'd say it would be worth it to do a little travel for a class. There is a lot of material covered.

Thank you for the replys,

I wrote that post before I realized the extent of 4H shooting programs on a national level. It is really quite amazing, there are some very dedicated people out there. I did discover that the head of NH 4H shooting lives here in my town. While I have not me him that I know of, I have worked with his wife, in fact we are both part of an effort to support nordic sking at our high school and middle school. I am going to email him and ask if any of the Nh 4H clubs shoot competitvely. I may have to be rather delicate in approaching him to not make it seem like I want him to do more work or spend more money.

This forum is wonderful, just reading on going posts and the few searches I have made yielded a wealth of information.

Thinking back of some of the sports I have been involved in, the money I have put out for them is similar to the amount that it sound like people pay out for shooting with the exception that in shooting it comes in one big chunk rather than a little bit at a time over a number of years. It make me wonder if having a One Design competition similar to sailing would limit the arms race in newer shooters and lower the initial entry costs. Thanks to this board, I do realize that there are cheeper ways to get started and that there are used guns available, but Yikes! there is a lot of money being spent. Some of the Go Big suggestions seem to be coming from people who have been doing this for a long time and have spent the money on lesser equipment and realized that it was money not well spent.

Oh well, lots to think about,
Cheers, philip

pcw wrote:It make me wonder if having a One Design competition similar to sailing would limit the arms race in newer shooters and lower the initial entry costs. Thanks to this board, I do realize that there are cheeper ways to get started and that there are used guns available, but Yikes! there is a lot of money being spent.

Philip ... you are correct, there is practically no limit to the amount of money you can spend .... again you don't have to.

One of the purposes of the "Sporter" 3-P Air Rifle class is specifically limit the amount that is spent. Currently one of the requirements for the guns is that they must be less than $525. The CMP regulates which guns by make & model that can be used ... NRA is a bit more relaxed there. If a gun exceeds the max cost, it looses it class approval. There are many guns in the $300 or so range, and in my own opinion, the guns at the top end just are not worth the extra cost. Current National Record in the class was set with a lower end rifle with the cheapest sights available ... and the score was fired multiple times by that person.

Hey Joel,

I know this is another big subject, but could you tell me a bit about air rifles. I have been thinking of getting something like a CM-2 to get started shooting, but thinking about it more, an air rifle I could shoot in my basement. I have just started looking into it, searching posts for info and looking at vendor pages. I like the looks and the price of the Crossman Challenger, but I really know nothing about them. We shoot the Daisey 853 with the 4H club and thats all I know.

Thanks, Philip

PCW,
I bought a Biathlon basic for my son when he was 6 years old. It is a toggle bolt sporter model with the same action as the Ishmash 7-4 biathlon rifle. I had heard they were accurate but when I shot groups as low as .250 at 50yds with R-50, I knew I had a winner. It has a weaver base to which you can attach many rear sights and a .750 barrel to which many front sights or bloop tubes can be attached. Add a rail, chop the stock and you have a beginners 3P rifle or a Biathlon rifle. I paid $275.00 about 10 years ago and they can be had for about $400.00 today. I converted the gun to a 7.3 and have the original stock floating around somewhere. I bought a cracked 7.3 stock from Altius for $110.00 and you need a new trigger at $10.00. I epoxied the stock and my son used it last year for Biathlon. Only needed a little inletting. A new 7.3 goes for $1800.00. In its Basic form, the trigger is a two stage that breaks like glass and it has a M-14 type safety in front of the trigger. Youth get to ski the course minus the gun and just shoot prone so no snow shields are needed on the sights. I used duct tape and hard foam to get his head right behind the rear sight. You know the old saying, if you are not handsome, then you better be handy.
Chris

pcw wrote:Hey Joel,

I know this is another big subject, but could you tell me a bit about air rifles. I have been thinking of getting something like a CM-2 to get started shooting, but thinking about it more, an air rifle I could shoot in my basement. I have just started looking into it, searching posts for info and looking at vendor pages. I like the looks and the price of the Crossman Challenger, but I really know nothing about them. We shoot the Daisey 853 with the 4H club and thats all I know.

Thanks, Philip

Philip .... if you don't my the cocking of the rifle, the 853 or 753 is a fine rifle. From those I've had in my hand, I just don't like the work of cocking it every shot. If you are just shooting standing, they are fine. I'd recommend you try and find a 753 as I like the stock dimensions and pistol grip.

If you don't mind refilling a CO2 cylinder, the 888 or 887 is the way to go (I like the 887s). You might even be able to pick up a used one from a JROTC program as they are moving towards compressed air rifles ... XSV-40, T200, Crosman, & Edge ... but all those will cost you $400+.

The Crosman Challenger shoots just fine as well, very accurate as far as I have been able to tell ... My >>only<< complaint against this gun is in the 3-P air in 3x20 matches. Every shooter I've seen with one has refilled the rifle in the middle of the match at some time. I don't know if it's caution or required. The reason I like the Daisy CO2 guns is that they will EASILY shoot two 3x20's with lots of sighters on a single fill. That's a preference I have. If you are just practicing in the basement, the Crosman will do you fine.

Don't know if this 887 has sold:
viewtopic.php?t=31862
but it's a decent asking price as the fill station is included (normally about $40 by itself)

Hey Joel,

Thanks for the link. I had seen that Daisy earlier, but wasn't really looking for an air gun at the time. It does seem like a nice air rifle and a nice price. Aside from the fill issue with the Crosman, is the adjustable cheek piece and butt worth getting? There doesn't seem to be much difference in price, so do you get the adjustment at the expence of say, sights or is it the Daisy air cylinder that you pay for?

I finally met the state shooting coordinator for 4H who told me that there are plans for gearing up the shooting program. That sounds good, but I'm getting a little frustrated at the lack of any existing program nearby. I would like to start shooting before the snow hits the ground (which will be quite soon).

Cheers, Philip

Hey Chris,

That does look like an interesting possibility, I will have to call MT guns and get a price on the Biathlon basic (oops you just said 400). So do you figure that the whole kit cost about a grand with a harness and what nots? I did look at the Savages that were converted and I saw someone over in Vt had a Marlin 2000 for sale.

There are a few kids up here that have been doing well at biathlon, one boy from down in North Conway NH, and another over in VT. I know there is a biathlon range at the National Guard armory in Jerico Vt, and a fish and game club down in Holderness NH runs some biathlons. I hope to get my daughter to at least on or two.

Cheers, Philip

pcw wrote:Aside from the fill issue with the Crosman, is the adjustable cheek piece and butt worth getting?

The adjustments are the BIG selling point of the Crosman.

The initial investment will be the gun, a rail for about $10-15.00, a handstop which you can find used here or at a gunshow for $25.00, a sling and armcuff for $60.00 from Altius, rear sight to fit on weaver base minimum $70.00 and a .750 barrel clamp which you can get at Champions Choice with a front sight from $60.00 and up. I am not exact on the prices, but we ars somewhere in the ballpark of $6-700 to start out. You will not need the harness and the snow covers until she is older. Better yet is that most of these clubs have Jr club guns that you can use for free. Even the ammo at our club is free for the Juniors. She will have to get skate skis, boots, bindings, and poles. Most of these can be bought at ski exchanges. We have a 12K outdoor lit track with many more miles of unlit track about 60 miles from here. It opens in November with artificial snow on the 12K run. He goes at least 3 times a week for conditioning. That is a State Park and is free for Juniors. Just have to buy a $20.00 sticker for the year. He gets daily lessons from the members there, it's really nice. He just started last year and now he can do a mile in 4 minutes. Great sport
Chris

Hey Chris,

My daughter competes in xc at the middle school level and we are fortunate to have the nicest high school nordic course in the state (no lights though). There are three other nordic areas within 40 miles and endless snow machine trails out the back door (nice skating). She likes shooting so we are going to give it a try.

PCW,
Where do you live, I'm moving. LOL

PCW,
Depending on her size, She could buy a CM-2 Cadet and compete in both Smallbore and Biathlon. It comes with sights and a rail and they are selling them on Guns America for $670.00. Just another thought.
Chris

Levergun59 wrote:PCW,
Depending on her size, She could buy a CM-2 Cadet and compete in both Smallbore and Biathlon. It comes with sights and a rail and they are selling them on Guns America for $670.00. Just another thought.
Chris

Call Mac Tilton at MT Guns ... I think he has Cadets for a bit less $$$$

I would also add that you need to check the CMP web site. Once you are an official youth program leader (4H, Scouts, whatever) they can offer great discounts on very nice .22 and precision air rifles, ammo, etc.

http://www.odcmp.com/