TargetTalk

I was wondering if it takes a long hold to obtain upper tier scores? I have to get my shot off in that 5-8 second area to get my groups consistently tight. When I am more deliberate the groups open up even if the shot felt right, consistency goes away. I was watching world class shooters on the ISSF channel and they hold for what seems forever (compared to me :) As there are no clubs here I have no personal observations on top shooters and their hold times at the club levels. My rhythm is pretty much ingrained with my current hold length and was just wondering if I need to slowly work into a longer hold, to get to the next plateau. Thanks in advance for any insight you can pass my way.

Robert K. wrote:I was watching world class shooters on the ISSF channel and they hold for what seems forever (compared to me :)

You have to ask yourself how physically fit you are and how many hundreds of times you lift the pistol each day.

It's a good question, but your observation is not true of the whole field. If you watch the guys shooting from behind, some yes do hold very long - I seem to recal Matsuda does. But a lot (more ?) don't.

I personally don't see the benefit of holding for very long - your eyes will be running out of oxygen no matter how good your hold is and your vision will be getting poorer. If you can't find the middle of the target in under 8 seconds on hold then something is wrong.

So I would suggest you forget what others are doing and concentrate on optimising your own performance based around your own timings. 3-8 seconds is generally the window I would be looking for people to get the shot off in.

Rob.

I'm with Rob, my "rhythm" is Very fast when I'm in the zone. All of my best shots are off within 1 second of being on the target (deep 10's, 10.5 and better type deep).

Watching the US guys in finals (at US matches), any shooter can have a shot off in under 8 seconds, or take 80 of the 90 seconds for 2~3 holds. Just depends on that shooter and their mental state.

As for the eyes, I asked one of the USAS resident athletes about his long hold and eyes. He said that while holding, he'll refocus his eyes on the back of his hand for a "rest", as well as breathing while holding. So, where I'd be up and down a couple times with aborted shots, he just kept the pistol up but refreshed eyes and oxygen (and mental most likely) without dropping the pistol. Something undoubtedly afforded because of conditioning. Kinda fun standing should to shoulder with someone who puts a 570-something downrange.

I know John Zurek is working on shortening his hold because the US coach told him it would probably be helpful.

The few times I shot at the Olympic Trainging Center, I really noticed the eyeball "fade" occurring quickly due to the 6,000 foot altitude. You needed to get your shots off fast.

There is no ideal hold time. I think it just depends on how long it takes your hold to reach its most stable point. Why worry about trying to break the shot earlier or later than this? It is not so much a matter of how long to hold, but it is coordinating your trigger control with the most steady period in your hold. Take a few deep breaths before you raise the gun so your body has plenty of oxygen. Develop your own system and then hammer it into your mind with thousands of rounds of quality practice until it becomes part of your subconscious and you no longer give it a conscious thought.

BEA wrote:There is no ideal hold time.

I'm afraid there is.

A number of factors come into play some improve with time (to a degree) whilst others deteriorate. The 'peak' or optimum time is when your hold has settled and steadied and your physical and mental parameters have not deteriorated too much. Eyesight is the first to start deteriorating followed by your physical muscle 'strength' - mental is a person to person thing.

If you read pretty much any shooting book you will see a graph of those parameters. For most people that optimum window is somewhere between 3 and 8 seconds. Now it will vary and supreme fitness and cardiovascular conditioning can lengthen that time, but everyone will have their optimum or sweet spot.

Rob.

It's going to vary from shooter to shooter, and even from shot to shot if you get tired.

Think about it: You raise the pistol, settle into your "hold", and at some point, you will reach a point of minimum motion. Hopefully this occurs with the pistol pointed at the 10 ring. After that, things will deteriorate. You want the shot to break at that minimum point.

One thing a lot of folks haven't figured out is that it you want the shot to go off at the point of minimum motion, YOU HAVE TO START YOUR SQUEEZE BEFORE THE PISTOL HAS FULLY SETTLED.

Lots of shooters wait until the sight picture has stabilized, and THEN start their squeeze. This is pretty much guaranteed to produce a worse shot than if they had started earlier.

The timing of all of this is highly individual. I think this is one of the areas where an electronic training system, like a Noptel, Rika or Scatt can be really useful. It allows you to SEE when you settle, vs when the shot breaks.

Also, if you aren't in the best of physical condition, getting your shots off earlier will reduce the level of fatigue towards the end of the match. Learning to abort bad shots earlier will also help.

RobStubbs wrote:Now it will vary and supreme fitness and cardiovascular conditioning can lengthen that time, but everyone will have their optimum or sweet spot.

That was exactly my point when replying to the original poster.

He was refering to "world class shooters on the ISSF channel".

These are shooters who "expect" to break 580, every time. 575 is a bad day at work and anything as low as 570 is an absolute disaster. In general they are supremely fit and highly trained.

Less well prepared shooters should not expect to have the extended shooting window that comes with many hours per day of preparation. "If you ain't brought it with you, don't expect to find it here".

Rob,

The second sentence in my previous note is saying pretty much the same thing you are. Someone else's hold time is not information that can be of any benefit to me other than polite conversation. My ideal hold time is how long it takes me to stablilize...your ideal hold time is different. As someone's skill level changes, their hold time changes too. After you go through the motion enough times, this is something that gets little to no thought because it becomes part of your subconscious system for executing shots. When shooting well, I have no thoughts as to whether or not my hold time running out. I have tried to train myself to execute the shot properly, but if I don't see what I want to see or feel the way I want to feel, time permitting, I abort (ideally speaking). When I am disciplined, it pays off with good scores...and the opposite is true. It is about mind control and less about physical controls.

I have to agree with BEA, I would also add that hold for an individual can change. For example I live at sea level, when I travel to the OTC in Colorado Springs my hold changes. I can not process the thin atmosphere as well as someone from the 5k altitude, yes I am in shape, but hypoxia sets in and the ability to hold focus on the front sight is shortened. So I need to adapt my hold to allow for a quicker break. I typically hold long, how long I do not know, it does not matter. If you get too caught up in the minutia of shooting it will detract from the key elements of the shot process.

David Levene wrote:

RobStubbs wrote:Now it will vary and supreme fitness and cardiovascular conditioning can lengthen that time, but everyone will have their optimum or sweet spot.

That was exactly my point when replying to the original poster.

He was refering to "world class shooters on the ISSF channel".

Yes David, I'm aware of that, but his point was factually wrong. Some world class shooters hold a very long time whilst others don't. I've been lucky enough to be sat behind Chevyakovsky last year and the number one Korean shooter this year for a 60 shot match so you can see how they shoot in fine detail. The Korean certainly didn't hold for ages. And watching others around, most didn't either.

The 'answer' however is the same as yours - what works for them isn't likely to work for you.

And each shooter has to work out their own optimum time. Scatt etc can help to a degree to find the most stable point but it can't look through your eyes.

Rob.