TargetTalk

Hi Guys,

I seem to shot the same type of bad shot at least once per target and i cant work out a) why it happens b) how to fix it and.

I shoot a UniquE Des 69/U and i hold just under the black so their is just a little white between my sights and the black rings

My bad shots always end up high and right about 1 O'clock - 2 O'clock on the target. So last night i shot 6 x 9, 1 x 8, 1x6 (High Right), 1 x4 (High Right) and 1 x 3 (High Right). It was a very tight group on the 9 and 8 ring then the flyers high right. The flyers don't happen after each other as well, just now and then.

I would just like to know what would cause this type of shot and if their is any fixes if that's possible??

You insight would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Brenton

You really need to work on shooting good shots and reproducing that. It sounds like you are making an error fairly often so just repeating the good shots is the solution. As to what it is I'd suspect triggering but you can't diagnose remotely. Irrespective though the solution is the same.

Some pointers are to really look at the sights and see what they tell you. The shots will go where the sights are pointing so you will be able to see that movement especially if you have a good, long follow through.

Try dry firing and see if the error repeats then. But again concentrate on smooth trigger release when the sights are in the right place.

Rob.

Pay attention on your wrist. You did not lock your wrist when you shot 1-2 o'clock shots.

Asian Shooter wrote:Pay attention on your wrist. You did not lock your wrist when you shot 1-2 o'clock shots.

I'd love to know how you know that without even seeing the guy shoot.

That's one of the dangers of asking advice, some people will offer solutions based on hypothetical scenarios, which are mostly likely wrong.

Rob.

As Rob says, it's hard to say exactly what's going wrong if you can't see the shooter shooting.

But one could give some pointers, no? As the bad shots are not at the low left, I would exclude bad triggering, and suspect maybe to much grippressure during the flyers.

Again, as Rob writes, do a lot of dryfiring and focus on the (front) sight.

Keep us informed of your progress

vdgert wrote:As Rob says, it's hard to say exactly what's going wrong if you can't see the shooter shooting.

But one could give some pointers, no? As the bad shots are not at the low left, I would exclude bad triggering, and suspect maybe to much grippressure during the flyers.

Actually no you really can't. I went through a spell of shooting flyers which were almost all high right and it was down to poor triggering. Shooting a gun is a multifactorial process and grip, hold, trigger and finger position can all influence how an error translates into a poor shot.

Again, as Rob writes, do a lot of dryfiring and focus on the (front) sight.

Keep us informed of your progress

I will agree with you there though ;)

Rob.

vdgert wrote:But one could give some pointers, no?

Shots high right are sometimes the result of anticipating recoil. This is "easily" overcome by just following a correct shot process, with a smooth positive trigger release and the willingness to abort the shot at the first stray thought.

It might however be something totally different.

Help Me Understand My Bad Shots :(
What is the value to learn about your bad shots? Is it kind of treasure for you? ;)
I think is better to ask: "Help Me Understand My Good Shot?" :)

RobStubbs wrote:

Asian Shooter wrote:Pay attention on your wrist. You did not lock your wrist when you shot 1-2 o'clock shots.

I'd love to know how you know that without even seeing the guy shoot.

That's one of the dangers of asking advice, some people will offer solutions based on hypothetical scenarios, which are mostly likely wrong.

Rob.

This is because it happened to me before. It's based on my experiences,nothing more. I've just tried to help, that's all.

Russ -

Allow me to speak as a beginning shooter.

I find a value in understanding my bad shots. The question is always, what is the corrective action. If I am trying to snatch a bull (which usually throws my shots to the lower right) then I have to refocus on trigger pressure. If I am taking shots after I've held too long, I need to accept to abort, and so on.

I think it is important not to dwell on any bad shot; I keep in mind that only the next shot counts. But shooting may be like juggling a dozen balls at once - breathe deeply, relax muscles, maintain posture, attain sight picture, attain target picture, increase trigger pressure, grip firmly but not too, be careful of excess pinky pressure, be careful of excess thumb pressure, etc. Many of these things become automatic, and I know I can hit lots of tens when I find the groove and thought is not necessary. But if they were all automatic every time, then I would be on my way to the Olympics. As I have not yet attained that level of Zen perfection, I still have to consciously attend to many of these aspects and knowing which one I've neglected does help the next shot.

Which is the only one that counts.

Roger

Asian Shooter wrote:

RobStubbs wrote:

Asian Shooter wrote:Pay attention on your wrist. You did not lock your wrist when you shot 1-2 o'clock shots.

I'd love to know how you know that without even seeing the guy shoot.

That's one of the dangers of asking advice, some people will offer solutions based on hypothetical scenarios, which are mostly likely wrong.

Rob.

This is because it happened to me before. It's based on my experiences,nothing more. I've just tried to help, that's all.

It happened to me, too, putting two out of ten in the 8 ring. I agree it's a good place to look first.

RandomShotz wrote:Russ -

Allow me to speak as a beginning shooter.

I find a value in understanding my bad shots. The question is always, what is the corrective action. If I am trying to snatch a bull (which usually throws my shots to the lower right) then I have to refocus on trigger pressure. If I am taking shots after I've held too long, I need to accept to abort, and so on.

I think it is important not to dwell on any bad shot; I keep in mind that only the next shot counts. But shooting may be like juggling a dozen balls at once - breathe deeply, relax muscles, maintain posture, attain sight picture, attain target picture, increase trigger pressure, grip firmly but not too, be careful of excess pinky pressure, be careful of excess thumb pressure, etc. Many of these things become automatic, and I know I can hit lots of tens when I find the groove and thought is not necessary. But if they were all automatic every time, then I would be on my way to the Olympics. As I have not yet attained that level of Zen perfection, I still have to consciously attend to many of these aspects and knowing which one I've neglected does help the next shot.

Which is the only one that counts.

Roger

Dear Roger,

If you pay attention, I signed into this forum in 2005 and offered my help to aspired target shooters. My approach was different than what I am reading here. It's hard for me to understand who is talking about what or if someone is trying to receive attention. Sometimes, we have arguements with respectful shooters in this forum, but I still stay on the same ground. For example, in July 3rd and 4th, I had a student who came to my place across the country. He has 20 years of competitive experience in NRA and Olympic Style shooting and 25 competitions under his belt. I spent two days with him and eight hours discussing about Perfect Single Shot Development, not even a single shot was shot during this class. He left with the largest amount of tips which I could not imagine. A few days after he came back home, he sent me an email. "I learned more from your class than 20 years of my shooting career." My question is, do I have to help people answer those questions or do I have to help them understand the subject completely. Most problems and questions occur when an athelete (shooter) does not have the complete picture; diagram, path, or visual image of what they are doing. So, it can be a tremendous amount of small mistakes and details related to many possible issues, but the most important part is to detect those issues and to create a complete circle of the successful process.

When I came to this forum in 2005, I had no desire to start competing again, but I forced myself to do this to prove my point. In 2006, I was rated number one in Air Pistol of the USAS ranking system. My average was 578 (lowest 570 & highest 584). I'm talking about competitive performance.
Here are some details: http://midwestacademyconsulting.wordpress.com/

Roger, if I may interject.

Your discussion with Russ seems to be about the same point from different angles.

You want to assess what you have done wrong in a shot so you can correct it.

Russ' argument is not to dismiss poor shot completely, rather have a solid understanding of every component that comprises a perfect shot.

If you know every component of a perfect shot, anything else must be what causes your poor shot.

Then you can go back to doing the correct things correctly on the next shot.

With regards to Brenton's initial question the above advice will help. You need to understand every element to a perfect shot.

This way you will know automatically when something else has crept into your technique or you have not performed an element correctly.

This takes time, patience and a lot of pages in your notebook, but is the only way to truly understand the mechanics of a perfect shot.

Good luck

Understanding errors is one thing. Earlier this evening, I did something that I do not understand.

I went to my usual range and shot my TOZ at 20M at reduced FP targets as I usually do.

The first target scored 90 for 10 shots, not my usual. My second target was all 8's or better, again better than usually do. The third target was 4 10's, (2X's) and one 8, so I stopped at five shots. Four of them overlapped - I have never shot that well before and I don't know what I did that was different.

So that is the exact opposite of the original poster's question - not how did I throw a flier, but how did I get everything right.

But it's late, and it's bedtime for Bonzo.

Roger

Randonshots,

Great outing, but when you have it going well KEEP going. Don't worry about the how at that point, just continue training the subconscious that you can do it.

Later you can try to remember what was different, but I'd bet on mental set rather than anything physical. Might be you went into the session with no preconceived ideas of trying anything different, but just to shoot, and your subconscious said OK lets shoot.

Pat -

I would have liked to keep it going, but the "8" was the fourth shot, followed by an "X". That is totally unlike my usual mode: 3-4 pretty good shots then I try too hard and pot a "6" and usually looks like I'm patterning a shotgun. To shoot that well, then wide, then recover was too much and I started laughing and my concentration was totally broken.

I read once that I should never try to shoot better than I can hold. It took a long time to understand and then to internalize that. To me it means that keeping all the shots in the 7 ring is better than a few in the middle and the rest hither and yon. And keeping all in the 8 ring is progress from there; the actual numerical score means nothing. I figured if I can progress that way, the arc of movement is shrinking and the mental game is not interfering with my physical progress. That's the ideal, of course, and I have many targets that show deviance from it. What I shot last night showed me the physical capability is there, stamina aside, and the real problems are in my head. (As in shooting, so in life.)

Unless, of course, those targets were just a statistical anomaly - if you flip a coin often enough, sooner or later you will flip "heads" 20 times in a row.

Roger

I have found that high right shots are frequently caused by clenching the whole hand at the trigger pull in an attempt to "ambush" the bull as it drifts by the sights. This is more noticeable when the grip doesn't fit quite right. YMMV

OK, one more time. Very often I see some guys who can’t shoot AP 550, but they know a lot about different problems and mistakes related to a shooter’s performance. This garbage in their head will affect their way up in performance, but some of them really treasure that kind of “knowledge“.
To shoot 570 you do not need to know about mistakes! You must have an ideal model in your head of the perfect shot and to execute it 60 times during the match. Simple as it is!
Even reading about other shooters mistakes will affect your performance as well, if your goal is above 570. But if your goal is only fun, why do you care about scores anyway? The goal to shoot 570 in AP must be accomplished in one year! One of my past students did it in three month after my two day session of perfect single shot development. Afterwards, he “invested” in an electronic system instead of coming to my advanced class. He ended up with a competitive score of AP 550 instead of a respectful score of AP 575.
Our roots of the decision making process are an essential part of our actual performance. Someone can have the best possible tips and advice about target shooting, but if his or her program of the decision making process is corrupted with a single mistake, this individual’s actual performance will deteriorate eventually.

Russ:

First off, you have to lose the attitude about shooters who are only in it for the "fun". If only because of my age, I will never be competitive on any significant level and I don't care. There are, I"m sure, people who pick up AP or FP because their idea of fun is handling the gear and gadgets but that wears off quickly and they will likely move on to some other gadget-laden activity fairly quickly.

However, my idea of fun is the mastery of the skill. How is that different from a competitor? Only in this: the competitor wishes to demonstrate his mastery in a public forum in the company of other shooters. I am not driven by the opinions of others and am content to have the mastery within. If I can show a well-shot target to one of the guys at the range and watch his jaw drop, that is a bonus but it is not why I'm expending the money, time and effort.

As I noted before, scoring per se is not important. What is important is to be able to control the gun so that it places a projectile consistently where the shooter wants it placed. The fact that there are scoring rings on the target are just aids to tell the (non-competitive, "fun") shooter how he is approaching his goal.

I have the feeling that you are dealing with upper tier shooters who want to gain the top tier. In essence, you are thinking in terms of master classes but many of us on this forum are still working our way up to that. Itzhak Perlman can help a Julliard student learn how to shape a phrase in a Bach partita, but the lesson won't do any good for someone who is still learning how to hold the bow.

In learning Zen meditation, thoughts will intrude; there is no way to keep them out. One learns to let the thought arise and let it go.

It is this last point that is the most difficult of course, and the one which I think you focus on. I think you believe that by acknowledging a mistake, a shooter is likely to carry that mistake forward. You may be right, but I think the problem is not the acknowledgement but the failure to let go.

Roger

Try increasing grip pressure by the ring finger and also the thumb ham on the back. Make sure the low end of the grip back is in good contact with the palm.