TargetTalk

Hi - my name is Steve Lamade. I don't know very much about air guns.

I've been practicing some shotgun fundamentals with my 11 year old daughter (keeping the barrel moving through the target while shooting with a sightless Avanti 499b) and she's really applied and enjoyed herself. Unfortunately the Avanti is too big for her to fire very comfortably.

With respect to shooting 10 m 3 Position air rifle: Would it be worth my while to get another Avanti (keeping the sights) and have the stock cut down to fit her?

OR -

I've been considering getting either a Crossman Challenger 2009 or an Edge3 from AirForce as the combs and butts. are adjustable. My question is whether both of us can fire these air guns as I'd like to build a 10 m range in my cellar for the days I can't get to the rifle range.

Also - what is the difference between the CO2 and PCP platforms?

Thanks in advance for your patience and replies.

Best,

Steve

A few things that might help here would be: how big is your daughter? and if you are both going to use it, how big are you?

If your daughter is very petite and you are not then using the same rifle will be harder.

I am not familiar with the air force but the crossman is a decent starter for the price and, as you notice the adjustability on the stock is helpful for multiple shooters and positions. Perhaps someone else can speak to the quality comparison between the two. If your daughter is very small it is sometimes possible to remove the adjustable butt, cut off an inch and re attach the butt assembly. This may be an option for the crossman but looks impossible for the air force.

CO2 is fine for recreational shooting however is has some properties that render it unsuitable for precision shooting, especially for temperatures common in some parts of the US. Although PCP has more overhead equipment similar systems are used on the top end air guns and it is currently the dominant propellant system for precision air guns.

Good Luck
'Dude

lhommedieu wrote:Hi - my name is Steve Lamade. I don't know very much about air guns.

I've been practicing some shotgun fundamentals with my 11 year old daughter (keeping the barrel moving through the target while shooting with a sightless Avanti 499b) and she's really applied and enjoyed herself. Unfortunately the Avanti is too big for her to fire very comfortably.

With respect to shooting 10 m 3 Position air rifle: Would it be worth my while to get another Avanti (keeping the sights) and have the stock cut down to fit her?

OR -

I've been considering getting either a Crossman Challenger 2009 or an Edge3 from AirForce as the combs and butts. are adjustable. My question is whether both of us can fire these air guns as I'd like to build a 10 m range in my cellar for the days I can't get to the rifle range.

Also - what is the difference between the CO2 and PCP platforms?

Thanks in advance for your patience and replies.

Best,

Steve

Are you trying to teach your daughter to be a shotgun shooter or a rifle shooter as the basic principals are not the same. If your going to do both, which is fine, but for some, since the techniques are different it takes alot of training and focus to be able to switch from one technique to the other.

The only major thing they may have in common is that the rifle or shotgun should fit as well as possible, especially the shotgun as if it doesn't fit well and the recoil hurts at that young age then your chances of her shooting shotgun again is going to be alot harder.

I am not sure what your asking what the difference between CO2 and PCP platforms other then one group shot CO2 and the other shots breathing quality air such as used by scuba divers and the fire departments. The PCP guns must use breathing or at class E quality air as the guns are under at least 3000 psi pressure and at the pressure if tried using a cheap tire compressor the oil and water from those compressors will do very bad things to the gun. The majority of Precision class competition guns are PCP and the sporter class are slowly moving from CO2 to PCP.

If your trying to find an air rifle for 3P then you can start out with a sporter class rifle Avanti 888, 887, or older XS40 (PCP) and if the stocks are to long they can be cut down. The Air Force Edge PCP probably can be adjusted down to the length you need, but the feedback I've been getting back on their rifle is mixed. The rifles seem to be having some issues of holding their accuracy. I haven't heard any negative feedback on the new crossman PCP rifles, but from the rifles I have seen they maybe to long for a shorter person and the stocks are synthetic and not wood, which cutting them down maybe more difficult. If your planning on learning to compete in 3P or international rifle shooting it is important that you start learning the correct techniques available and find out what works instead of winging it and then trying to break the bad habits afterwards. The best thing to do is find somebody that has a rifle your interested in and trying it out. I haven't meet anybody in this game that isn't willing to let try out their rifles.

After awhile you can decide to move from sporter to precision air rifle. The difference between sporter and precision rifle is that for sporter you have to use the rifles approved by the Airgun Council, which the most used have been mentioned above. The competitor can only wear street cloths, whereas the precision shooter can use the same rifles and wear the same special coats, pants, and boots used in the Olympics and at the collegiate or university level shooting teams and at the high school club programs.

If you decide you want to get a precision air rifle rifle. FWB has a P700 Junior precision air rifle.

We have both the Crossman and Air Force guns.

Advantage of the Air Force is that it is lighter and shorter LOP. It seems to have some issues with accuracy in some guns, and some shoot well. One thing I like is that you can add weight(up to sporter max weight)where you want to get the balance that the shooter likes. Trigger out of the box is great with the Air force.

Advantages of the Crossman is that overall accuracy is better than the Air Force. Since the stock is more full sized and contoured like an Anschutz 1903, switching between air rifle and small bore(.22),is no problem for kids. Since my daughter shoots both, she prefers the Crossman. The trigger can be adjusted on the Crossman.

Reliability between the guns has been excellent. We have not had to have any returned for service. Filling of the guns is easy and both use the same fitting, so just go to the tank and refill, no purging of CO2 or cooling tanks.

One thing to consider is the Air force full tank requires 3000 psi max, while the Crossman runs at 2000psi max. If you are using a scuba tank to refill, you will get many,many more fills with the Crossman.

Guys,

Thanks for the great advice.

At 4'6" and 81 pounds I guess my daughter is a bit on the petite side. I on the other hand am 5'10" and 200 pounds, so my best guess is that we're taking about two different guns.

At this point I'm leaning towards the Crossman 2009s for me, and getting an Avanti 889 and having the stock cut down and refitted with an adjustable butt plate for my daughter. That way when she's big enough for the Crossman there will be the additional benefit of an easier crossover to the Ruger 10 22.

The FWB is probably a bit down the road, but I appreciate the advice and will file it away.

***

Shotgunning does indeed have some different skill sets. When she can hit a quarter tossed into 10 feet into the air with the sightless Avanti 499b Ill start thinking about what kind of 20g (or 28g) to fit to her.

Best,

Steve

lhommedieu wrote:Guys,

Thanks for the great advice.

At 4'6" and 81 pounds I guess my daughter is a bit on the petite side. I on the other hand am 5'10" and 200 pounds, so my best guess is that we're taking about two different guns.

At this point I'm leaning towards the Crossman 2009s for me, and getting an Avanti 889 and having the stock cut down and refitted with an adjustable butt plate for my daughter. That way when she's big enough for the Crossman there will be the additional benefit of an easier crossover to the Ruger 10 22.

The FWB is probably a bit down the road, but I appreciate the advice and will file it away.

***

Shotgunning does indeed have some different skill sets. When she can hit a quarter tossed into 10 feet into the air with the sightless Avanti 499b Ill start thinking about what kind of 20g (or 28g) to fit to her.

Best,

Steve

She maybe small, but she is only about 2" shorter then our state's two time National Sporter Champion. He shots an Avanti XS40 (he did shot a Airforce Edge) and a FWB P700 Evolution, which is just shy of a full size rifle. His sister shot for the first time with him at the two Camp Perry National 3P Air Rifle Championships and she beat him in prone on the first day. His sister is probably about 4' 5". The real challenge was finding a free rifle that would fit him properly.

Steve,
I recommend 2 rifles, one for her and one for you.

#1 Basic fit.
I would get her a junior or even a sub-junior rifle, and you would probably fit a full-size rifle.
I am 5'4" and I fit and shoot a junior size rifle. I can shoot a full size rifle, but the junior rifle fits better.

#2 Adjustments
You really do NOT want to be adjusting the rifle when you switch between shooters. It is a PIA to do, and the likelyhood that you will get ALL the adjustments put back into the same place is small.

Some rifle have more adjustments than others (length of pull, butt plate height and angle, cheekpiece height and angle, pistol grip adjustment, trigger position (both front/back and up/down)). And the screws/nuts/etc are usually not marked, making returning to a position difficult to do. Because of that, when I "try" someones rifle/pistol, I don't change any adjustment in the gun. And some rifles will have limited adjustments, maybe only length of pull, so it would be easier to adjust. BUT, you will likely also have to adjust the sight for difference.

re CO2 and CA/PCP
I shoot both CO2 (AirPistol) and CA/PCP (AirRifle). Based on my experience, if the ambient temperature is somewhat comfortable to you, CO2 will not be an issue. CO2 has problems when the ambient temp is HIGH or LOW. Both will require a tank to hold the compessed gas, although you could use a hand pump for CA.

Thanks for your responses.

The Avanti XS40 looks like a good fit for my daughter - and certainly easier than cutting down the stock of another rifle. Any estimate as per cost?

I'm fairly sure I'm making a good decision on the Crossman 2009s for me. I shoot primarily small bore - but am looking for way to build my skills when I'm not going to an outdoor range. The Crossman will probably out-shoot me for a while...

As for CO2 - I have a tank at home with a regulator for making seltzer for my wife. Is there a piece of equipment that would allow me to fill the containers used in a CO2 gun? Temperature in my cellar is generally 45 - 55 degrees in the winter and remains constant.

Best,

Steve

I think the Avanti XS40 (or the similar Air Arms S200T) is a good choice. I tried shooting one, and was quite pleased with how it fit me.
I think the XS40 is no longer imported by Daisy, so you have to shop the used market.
Straight Shooters lists the similar S200T for $600
http://www.straightshooters.com/Air%20A ... icing.html

The Crossman Challenger and AirForce Edge come in at about the same price at Pilkingtons.
http://www.pilkguns.com/sporterar.shtml

You need to put LIQUID co2 into the tank, so a standard co2 tank has to be inverted to get the liquid out. This is OK for maybe up to a 10 pound tank (a 10 pound tank is marginal to invert), but beyond that you should have a syphon tube in the tank to get the liquid co2 from the bottom of the tank.

I shot my co2 AP down into the 40s. But I stopped, not because of the cold on the co2, but my finger was so cold that I could not feel the trigger and thus I could not control the trigger release.

The co2 rifle should come with an adapter to screw onto the bulk co2 tank that you then attach the removable tank of the rifle. There are differences based on the specific rifle. Example, the TAU200 you load co2 into a transfer tank from the bulk tank, then use the transfer tank to load co2 into the non-removable tank on the rifle.

The Avanti XS40 is CA/PCP, so you need a SCUBA tank or hand pump for that rifle.

The Crossman 2009s also supports a CA/PCP platform - so I'll get a hand pump for both guns. Are there advantages to PCP - other than the convenience of not having to fill the container manually?

We're going to Italy in a few days so I'll start the "financing" process (talking to my wife) when we get back. Fortunately she's a shooter as well...

Thank you, again, for your responses. This is a great forum.

Best,

Steve

I wish I had a dad that started me off early like you are doing for your daughter. Unfortunately we lived in the city and he was only familar with powder burners, so I never got to shoot until I was about 17, and then it was a 22LR.

lhommedieu wrote:The Crossman 2009s also supports a CA/PCP platform - so I'll get a hand pump for both guns. Are there advantages to PCP - other than the convenience of not having to fill the container manually?

We're going to Italy in a few days so I'll start the "financing" process (talking to my wife) when we get back. Fortunately she's a shooter as well...

Thank you, again, for your responses. This is a great forum.

Best,

Steve

Unless you want the exercise, I wouldn't spend the money on a hand pump for several reasons. They are okay to use once in awhile, but on a continuous basis for long term usage I would get a scuba tank and get it filled at a scuba shop or your local fire department. If your try to fill a 200 bar cylinder all at once that is alot of strokes and in the process it generates heat, which in turn generates heat and moisture.

The newer hand pumps have a filter and relief valve to drain water, but to illustrate how much water and heat these pumps generate I used an older hand pump when I first started, which hand a drain valve, but no filter. The pump had sized within a year from trying to fill the cylinders in one session. The seals had failed and the metal interior had rusted solid. The suggested correct way to fill the air cylinders is to pump 20 strokes into the cylinder and then let the cylinder and pump cool down for 15 or 20 minutes and then repeat the procedure until the cylinder is filled. If you look at most breathing compressors they have at least three to six filters and the drains are designed not to trap water that would harm the pump or limit entry into the cylinders.

I know there are people that have used these pumps and swear by them, but if your only using the pump once a week or month then the effects aren't going to show up for a long time. However, if your competing on a regular basis and training more then once or twice a week then the effects are going to appear sooner. The other issue is that when I plunk down $1500 or more for a gun I just don't want to trust a $200 device that has minimal protection against oil and water.

GaryN wrote:I wish I had a dad that started me off early like you are doing for your daughter. Unfortunately we lived in the city and he was only familar with powder burners, so I never got to shoot until I was about 17, and then it was a 22LR.

Just doing what my dad did for me. We grew up in the suburbs but often got the chance to get out to the country where my dad had family. I started shooting a Marlin 99 .22 about the same age as my daughter. I just started shooting seriously again a couple of years ago; using an air rifle indoors looks like a great way to help her to build fundamentals. My best wish is that she builds up to the rigor that the sport promises.

Best,

Steve

Unless you want the exercise, I wouldn't spend the money on a hand pump for several reasons....

Thanks for the advice.

Best,

Steve