I plan on using my Python for revolver bullseye competition this summer and want to re-load .38 wadcutters in .357 cases. Is there any adjustment I need to make in powder charge from a .38 case, or do I use a normal target load for .38 WC using Bullseye powder? Is there a preference between 148 and 158 grain bullets?
thanks!
Reloading .38 wadcutter in .357 cases for Bullseye
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, Isabel1130
-
topclass52
- Posts: 146
- Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:09 pm
- Location: NorCal
Powder charge will be different
Greetings,
Consult the Speer reloading manual. You will find that more powder is needed to attain the same velocity as 38 WadCutter ammo. Speers velocity values are generally quite representative of real world velocities.
I believe 750 +/- 25 FPS will be a good target zone.
Cheers,
Dave
Consult the Speer reloading manual. You will find that more powder is needed to attain the same velocity as 38 WadCutter ammo. Speers velocity values are generally quite representative of real world velocities.
I believe 750 +/- 25 FPS will be a good target zone.
Cheers,
Dave
primers
I also used small rifle and small rifle magnum primers in 38 wadcutter when the primer shortage was in it's peak. I think the only difference I ever noriced was that the hotter the primer, the further the bullet will travel down the bore if there is NO powder in the case, but like, duh....who would do that?
Here are a couple of guidelines:
1) If you use 38 special wadcutter loading data, and load the WC in a 357 case, your pressures-for that 38 special powder dosage-will be LOWER in a 357 case. This is because there is more volume in a 357 case. Therefore, you may have to increase the powder charge 0.1 -0.2 grains when using 38 special loading data in a 357 case (for same bullet in each).
2) It depends on the wadcutter design you are using. A hollow base wadcutter (hbwc) will use lower powder dosages than solid base (ie double ended or cast flat base wadcutters). The hbwc skirt expands under pressure to seal the bore. If the powder charge/pressure is too high (too high velocity) you can blow the skirt off the bullet. It CAN be left in you barrel (like a lead ring/ back 1/3 of the bullet) as the front part of the bullet leaves the bore). If this happens, and you don't catch it due to a weird ("not normal") blast signature), your next shot-shooting into that lodged lead ring in the barrel- will likely ring your barrel (bulge it). Not good. Therefore, don't try to maximize velocity with hbwc bullets. There's no need to anyway. Typical 38 special powder dosages for 148 grain hbwc IN 38 SPECIAL CASES are: 2.7 grains of Bullseye, and ~ 2.9 grains of W231. If a hbwc bullet is loaded in a 357 case, you could slightly increase those dosages ~ 0.1-0.2 grains (due to the increased case volume/lower pressure issue presented earlier).
3). If you are using a solid base 148 grain bullet (ie double ended, or cast "button nosed" design, ie Lyman 358495, Lee 358148 tumble lube), you will likely see better accuracy at slightly higher powder charges. I use 3.4 grains of Bullseye for these two mentioned bullets with good accuracy (~ 1 inch at 50 feet). Since the bullet doesn't have a "skirt", it doesn't have the risk of having it separate. It also may have to run at higher pressures (due to the lack of skirt) to obturate ("swell"/compress and expand to bore diameter). This is achieved by higher powder charge. There is a guideline often mentioned that you need ~ 1400+ CUP per BHN hardness number to have some obturation. Wheelweights have a hardness of ~ 12. Pure (soft) lead has a BHN hardness value of ~ 6-8. Check your reloading charts, but 3.2-3.5 grains of Bullseye will likely give better accuracy with non-hbwc wadcutter designs, than ~ 2.5-2.7 grains.
4) Try sizing them at .358-359""+ (or "as cast"+ lubed), this can give better accuracy than .357" sized bullets (depends on throat diameter and bore diameter. I "size" my wadcutters with a SAECO lubrisizer using a .360" die. I don't size the bullet (unless it's over .360" depending on the alloy), but merely lube them with that set up, using NRA standard lube formula (50/50 alox/beeswax). I've tried .357", and .358". Essentially a lubed, unsized bullet of .359+" diameter is the most accurate condition in my 38/357 revolvers. This may not be the case for other revolvers. My cylinder throats are .358".
5). If loading wadcutters in 38 special cases, to be shot in 357 chambers, I have found significantly improved accuracy if I seat the wadcutters out to just touch the (rear portion of the) cylinder throats. This too INCREASES case volume and will result in LOWER pressure if you try one powder charge for both seating depths (flush with case mouth vs. seated out ~ 0.20" or so to touch the rear cylinder throat). You may have to adjust powder charge to maximize accuracy in your revolver. I have found best accuracy using the Lee 358-148 grain double ended tumble lubed bullet, "sized" 0.360" (casts .358"+, essentially shot "as cast" but lubed), and seated "4 rings out" when loading in 38 special cases and shooting it in my 357 SW 586 revolver. I have also found that this bullet shoots better when the sprue is FORWARD, compared to "sprue in rear." I have found that regular cast solid base "button nosed" 148 grain flat based wadcutters (ie Lyman 358495) have shot more accurately loaded BACKWARDS, and seated out to have the BASE just touch the rearward part of the cylinder throats. I just picked up an H&G model 50 358-148 grain flat based wadcutter that is supposes to be .360"++i diamete-looking forward to testing that mold too.
6). Here's one other finding I noted; a leading issue resolved. I bought 1000 Precision Delta soft lead 357-148 grain hbwc with their premium "match lube." I loaded them in 38 special cases, and seated them to the front lube groove over 2.7 grains of Bullseye. Accuracy was excellent (~ 0.6" @ 50 ft for the first cylinder (5 shots loaded) -but I got terrible leading in the forcing cone. I don't think there was enough factory lube. I had to stop shooting after 15 rounds. I had heavy leading in three different revolvers with that load-so I'm pretty sure it's the bullet, and not the revolver(s).
I ran 50 of the factory lubed PD hbwc bullets through my SAECO lubrisizer with .360" sizer die and 50/50 bw/alox lube (lubed just the rear lube groove). I loaded these "double lubed" hbwc bullets over a slightly lower dosage @ 2.5 grains of Bullseye. I got excellent accuracy and NO leading. I know I changed two variables, but it worked. I could cover 5 shots with a dime at 50 ft with this load.
7) Be vigilant in reading powder dosages with "wadcutter bullets" on the internet. Most people throw the term "148 grain wadcutter" with powder dosages, WITHOUT NOTING it is a HBWC or DOUBLE ENDED/CAST SOLID BASE wadcutter. You DON'T want to experiment using 3.5 grains fo Bullseye powder with a soft swaged 148 grain hbwc. You may blow a skirt.
You will read many references citing "the classic 38 special 148 grain wadcutter load" of "2.7 grains of Bullseye." I would state that it IS a classic load- for the HBWC version. I haven't had much luck with that "classic" powder charge with any of my solid base, non-hbwc "148 wadcutters." Be vigilant to determine if the recommended loads cite "hbwc" or "solid base"/double-ended / cast , or just "148 grain wadcutter." It makes a BIG difference. They are two completely different bullets, with two completely mechanisms for sealing the bore. Treat them as separate bullets and needing separate loading considerations.
These are just my findings, but from some pretty good experimentation. They have held up in my SW model 14's (38 special) and my SW 586 and SW M28 (357 mag), not just one revolver.
You just have to find out what works out best in your revolver. Keep good range notes (get a notebook and keep records of your testing). It's a fun process.
Good luck.
1) If you use 38 special wadcutter loading data, and load the WC in a 357 case, your pressures-for that 38 special powder dosage-will be LOWER in a 357 case. This is because there is more volume in a 357 case. Therefore, you may have to increase the powder charge 0.1 -0.2 grains when using 38 special loading data in a 357 case (for same bullet in each).
2) It depends on the wadcutter design you are using. A hollow base wadcutter (hbwc) will use lower powder dosages than solid base (ie double ended or cast flat base wadcutters). The hbwc skirt expands under pressure to seal the bore. If the powder charge/pressure is too high (too high velocity) you can blow the skirt off the bullet. It CAN be left in you barrel (like a lead ring/ back 1/3 of the bullet) as the front part of the bullet leaves the bore). If this happens, and you don't catch it due to a weird ("not normal") blast signature), your next shot-shooting into that lodged lead ring in the barrel- will likely ring your barrel (bulge it). Not good. Therefore, don't try to maximize velocity with hbwc bullets. There's no need to anyway. Typical 38 special powder dosages for 148 grain hbwc IN 38 SPECIAL CASES are: 2.7 grains of Bullseye, and ~ 2.9 grains of W231. If a hbwc bullet is loaded in a 357 case, you could slightly increase those dosages ~ 0.1-0.2 grains (due to the increased case volume/lower pressure issue presented earlier).
3). If you are using a solid base 148 grain bullet (ie double ended, or cast "button nosed" design, ie Lyman 358495, Lee 358148 tumble lube), you will likely see better accuracy at slightly higher powder charges. I use 3.4 grains of Bullseye for these two mentioned bullets with good accuracy (~ 1 inch at 50 feet). Since the bullet doesn't have a "skirt", it doesn't have the risk of having it separate. It also may have to run at higher pressures (due to the lack of skirt) to obturate ("swell"/compress and expand to bore diameter). This is achieved by higher powder charge. There is a guideline often mentioned that you need ~ 1400+ CUP per BHN hardness number to have some obturation. Wheelweights have a hardness of ~ 12. Pure (soft) lead has a BHN hardness value of ~ 6-8. Check your reloading charts, but 3.2-3.5 grains of Bullseye will likely give better accuracy with non-hbwc wadcutter designs, than ~ 2.5-2.7 grains.
4) Try sizing them at .358-359""+ (or "as cast"+ lubed), this can give better accuracy than .357" sized bullets (depends on throat diameter and bore diameter. I "size" my wadcutters with a SAECO lubrisizer using a .360" die. I don't size the bullet (unless it's over .360" depending on the alloy), but merely lube them with that set up, using NRA standard lube formula (50/50 alox/beeswax). I've tried .357", and .358". Essentially a lubed, unsized bullet of .359+" diameter is the most accurate condition in my 38/357 revolvers. This may not be the case for other revolvers. My cylinder throats are .358".
5). If loading wadcutters in 38 special cases, to be shot in 357 chambers, I have found significantly improved accuracy if I seat the wadcutters out to just touch the (rear portion of the) cylinder throats. This too INCREASES case volume and will result in LOWER pressure if you try one powder charge for both seating depths (flush with case mouth vs. seated out ~ 0.20" or so to touch the rear cylinder throat). You may have to adjust powder charge to maximize accuracy in your revolver. I have found best accuracy using the Lee 358-148 grain double ended tumble lubed bullet, "sized" 0.360" (casts .358"+, essentially shot "as cast" but lubed), and seated "4 rings out" when loading in 38 special cases and shooting it in my 357 SW 586 revolver. I have also found that this bullet shoots better when the sprue is FORWARD, compared to "sprue in rear." I have found that regular cast solid base "button nosed" 148 grain flat based wadcutters (ie Lyman 358495) have shot more accurately loaded BACKWARDS, and seated out to have the BASE just touch the rearward part of the cylinder throats. I just picked up an H&G model 50 358-148 grain flat based wadcutter that is supposes to be .360"++i diamete-looking forward to testing that mold too.
6). Here's one other finding I noted; a leading issue resolved. I bought 1000 Precision Delta soft lead 357-148 grain hbwc with their premium "match lube." I loaded them in 38 special cases, and seated them to the front lube groove over 2.7 grains of Bullseye. Accuracy was excellent (~ 0.6" @ 50 ft for the first cylinder (5 shots loaded) -but I got terrible leading in the forcing cone. I don't think there was enough factory lube. I had to stop shooting after 15 rounds. I had heavy leading in three different revolvers with that load-so I'm pretty sure it's the bullet, and not the revolver(s).
I ran 50 of the factory lubed PD hbwc bullets through my SAECO lubrisizer with .360" sizer die and 50/50 bw/alox lube (lubed just the rear lube groove). I loaded these "double lubed" hbwc bullets over a slightly lower dosage @ 2.5 grains of Bullseye. I got excellent accuracy and NO leading. I know I changed two variables, but it worked. I could cover 5 shots with a dime at 50 ft with this load.
7) Be vigilant in reading powder dosages with "wadcutter bullets" on the internet. Most people throw the term "148 grain wadcutter" with powder dosages, WITHOUT NOTING it is a HBWC or DOUBLE ENDED/CAST SOLID BASE wadcutter. You DON'T want to experiment using 3.5 grains fo Bullseye powder with a soft swaged 148 grain hbwc. You may blow a skirt.
You will read many references citing "the classic 38 special 148 grain wadcutter load" of "2.7 grains of Bullseye." I would state that it IS a classic load- for the HBWC version. I haven't had much luck with that "classic" powder charge with any of my solid base, non-hbwc "148 wadcutters." Be vigilant to determine if the recommended loads cite "hbwc" or "solid base"/double-ended / cast , or just "148 grain wadcutter." It makes a BIG difference. They are two completely different bullets, with two completely mechanisms for sealing the bore. Treat them as separate bullets and needing separate loading considerations.
These are just my findings, but from some pretty good experimentation. They have held up in my SW model 14's (38 special) and my SW 586 and SW M28 (357 mag), not just one revolver.
You just have to find out what works out best in your revolver. Keep good range notes (get a notebook and keep records of your testing). It's a fun process.
Good luck.
Last edited by buttstock on Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:43 pm, edited 4 times in total.
-
topclass52
- Posts: 146
- Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:09 pm
- Location: NorCal
.38 in .357 cases
thank you, everyone, for your help. you have saved me considerable time.
topclass
topclass