TargetTalk

Wikipedia (!) says the .32 S&W Long is the most popular calibre for the ISSF 25 m CF event - because it has good performance characteristics!!! Isnt the .357 Magnum supposed to be a better shooting cartridge???

I suppose it depends on your definition of "better." The .32 S&W Long certainly seems to dominate that event.

Nahendra:

When shooting International CF, you're not trying to blow up the target, but punching a hole as close as possible to the center of it in a certain (limited) amount of time.

From that point of view and for that purpose, the .32 S&W L is a better cartridge than the .357 Mg, in spades.

Recoil is more manageable, and when talking about semiauto pistols, its size when loaded with a WC bullet allows it to be chambered in a weapon that fits in the rule box with spare room for good grips and ergonomics.

renzo wrote:Nahendra:

When shooting International CF, you're not trying to blow up the target, but punching a hole as close as possible to the center of it in a certain (limited) amount of time.

From that point of view and for that purpose, the .32 S&W L is a better cartridge than the .357 Mg, in spades.

Recoil is more manageable, and when talking about semiauto pistols, its size when loaded with a WC bullet allows it to be chambered in a weapon that fits in the rule box with spare room for good grips and ergonomics.

Think of your target pistol as a weapon and that is all it will be to you.

Oh.....lets open a can of worms
The more accurate ISSF C/F cartridge is the .38 special wadcutter load.
That said... for precision half it will out perform the .32 in both an Auto and a Revolver.
But very few revolvers can make it perform and even less auto's (few or none in current production).
Now in the rapidfire stage ..... it takes a lot of training to duel well with a .38 revolver, recoil and all, so the .32 auto usually does better as it is easier to use.
Maybe better is a .32 Nugant russian revolver ....if you can find one.
However.......The .32 sw long has a lot of short comings, but it is what we have in most of the current production in target quality firearms.
So.....you take your pick !!

Narendra wrote:...Isnt the .357 Magnum supposed to be a better shooting cartridge???

to echo David's sentiments, the .38 Special is (arguably) the best ballistically for ISSF Center Fire, the best the .375 Magnum can do is be loaded down to duplicate the .38 Special.

.32SWLWC was chosen because it is a center fire cartridge, its caliber is big enough to comply with CF rules, it is accurate enough (when well (re)loaded) and it is very weak allowing simple and light automatic pistol design that can be derived from .22LR match pistol design (no need of a locked breech, no need of an heavy breech that increase pistol movement/jump...).

A .38special WC auto pistol would at least need an heavier breech that will increase the movement/jump after each shot and the better accuracy won't probably be really noticeable. Do not forget that a .38specialWC cartridge is heavier than a .32SWLWC what is also not good for stability and pistol balance (different balance between the first shot when there are 5 cartridges and last shot when only one remains).

The whole pistol would need to be stronger to sustain the higher energy of the .38special WC (current .32SWLWC pistol do not like/may break with factory .32SWLWC loads, without major reinforcment, it would be even worse with .38special WC).

Last point, it would probably be possible to design a special cartridge, optimized for CF (and military RF) but the market is so small that it never happened.

David mentioned the Nagant revolver, I had a Toz 7.62 nagant revolver back in the good old pre Blair days, it was simply superb, the ammunition was a tapered case with the wadcutter seated about 5 mm down the case. the case locked into the barrel, the chamber locked over the barrel, perfect seal. It was very low recoil and supremely accurate, Hmmmm, good old days.
Did I see somewhere that the new world record is held with one?
Robin

Is the Sig P240 accurate in 38 special? And, does it meet the weight requirement of ISSF centrefire?

Yes, it is and it does respectively.

Narendra wrote:Wikipedia (!) says the .32 S&W Long is the most popular calibre for the ISSF 25 m CF event - because it has good performance characteristics!!! Isnt the .357 Magnum supposed to be a better shooting cartridge???

You cannot use .357 magnum cartridges in ISSF centrefire matches.
.38 is fine, but .357 magnum loads are NOT allowed.

aah! high power and magnum ammo is not allowed... even if the bullet dia is within the .30 - .38 limits...
but isnt magnum a marketing term? what does magnum denote? and when reloading, the quantity of powder used is controlled by the reloader...

Anonymous wrote:Think of your target pistol as a weapon and that is all it will be to you.

No no, that would be wrong. Target pistols are just that - target pistols. They can be weapons, but they are much more than pipes that push a projectile with a bang. Sorry if I gave you that impression. I was thinking ballistics, not recoil.

narendra wrote:aah! high power and magnum ammo is not allowed... even if the bullet dia is within the .30 - .38 limits...
but isnt magnum a marketing term? what does magnum denote? and when reloading, the quantity of powder used is controlled by the reloader...

You're entering formal shooting with the wrong foot, my friend. Believe me, the LAST thing you want is an argument with the range officers regarding the legality of your equipment in the moments prior to the match . You'll be losing precious point before even having pulled the trigger for the first series!!!!!!

The ISSF rules clearly state that magnum ammunition is not allowed. So what's the point in using .357's which is tagged "magnum" all around??

Sorry, but....
You can use a .357 mag in ISSF shooting, with .357 cartridge cases.
What you cannot do is shoot a load that would be considered to be loaded to magnum pressures.
So a 148g W/C loaded in a .357 Mag case with 2.5g Bullseye is a light target load and can be used in a 686 SW .357 mag.

That's an opinion, that can be shared or not by the judges.

I would hate having to discuss interpretations of the rules with an officer when I should be preparing my match, specially if there's no need for it

renzo wrote:That's an opinion, that can be shared or not by the judges.

I would hate having to discuss interpretations of the rules with an officer when I should be preparing my match, specially if there's no need for it

this is not up to an interpretation by any individual Judge (or other range official): the only reference to 'magnum' is in ISSF 8.4.4 and quite specifically refers to ammunition, not to the chambering of the firearm.

if a shooter wishes to use a firearm chambered for .357 Magnum, so be it - provided the ammunition is not loaded to 'magnum' specifications and 800-880 fps second (well below 'magnum') gives the best results.

My view is that since there are no devices ready to check the energy of the load in quiestion, nor is the question of that measurement referred in the rules, it's ALL a question of interpretation by the judges.

It's not like Practical Shooting in which they have chronographs in the range as a standard.

What I'm saying is that I believe that any cartridge headstamped "magnum" as the .357 is will most probably arise an argument, which the user will probably lose.

You really dont need any special tools to tell, just get them to shoot sighters.
You will know if they are hot loads.
It is nearly impossible to shoot a full house .357 load single handed without either doing wrist damage or hitting yourself in the head.

Some simple load data..
Target load .38 or .357 case.........approx 7,000 cup (10-12,000psi)
Max .38 special............................ 16,000 cup
Max .38 special +P...................... 20,000 cup
Max .357 Mag............................. 40,000 cup

A Magnum load level is 3 to 5 times greater than that which is required for target shooting.
Also to really get to these levels you need jacketed projectiles, lead just won't do it.

I must disagree.

I DO have a .357, and shoot full loads one-handed without any injuries and without any need of jacketed bullets: just gas-checked ones, which are indistinguishable from common lead from the outside.

Apart from that, there's no statement of a precise limit of energy for defining "magnum" in the rules, so it will be forever a question of judge's criteria.

But I think both of us are falling of the mark.

Do you really think that the moments previous to a match are the appropiate for starting an argument with the range officers regarding equipment???

When I started shooting AP (25 years ago) among the first recommendations I received was to set my trigger to a weight exceeding 500 grams (they said no less than 550-560 grams) to rule out any trouble when checking the equipment.

It was a sane advice, and I kept it. Mine here is nothing but an extension to it.