TargetTalk

Hi all,

Since there isnt a 300m area, I thought I would post this in the lounge. I am new to shooting, to add to that obvious handicap, I am not a citizen of USA. My country's politicians are still in an ex-British colonial hangover and think firearms with citizens is a bad idea. Policy ramblings aside, I can not buy a rifle in any calibre used by our military, including 7.62 (thus no .308). Also, apart from the .375 H&H, .30-06 Sprg, and a weird .315 based on the 8x50mmR Mannlicher, ammo availability is a big question. Those sportsmen who (despite the system) achieve minimum scores in national competitions are allowed to import competition-grade rifles and a reasonable quantity of competition-grade ammo. Thank God for small mercies.

I am keen on following the footsteps of some of my countrymen who have done us proud in ISSF and Olympic events, but in the 300 m standard event. My questions are:

1. Is 30-06 a good calibre to start out for the 300 m event?

2. Which is a good entry-level rifle for the 300 m event? Budget around $1000. (I plan to buy this rifle in the US, and take it with me when I go back. This is a special concession allowed by my country to those citizens who are returning after a minimum three years stay abroad.)

3. Is the Winchester M70 in .30-06 good enough for the 300 m event - to achieve the minimum score ofcourse.

Note : The minimum score I am looking to achieve is 475 out of 600. That will allow me to import competition-grade rifle and ammo the year after.

Thank you for reading my post, and in anticipation of your replies,

Cheers!

Are you looking _specifically_ to the fullbore shooting?
What about .22?

If it is 300m 3 position as shot in the Olympics, and you have a $1000 budget you will need a rifle with a rail, handstop, sling, and target sights, ect. This will break the bank if bought new, so I would check the used target rifle market. The usual calibers in 300m are 6mm benchrest, 6.5x47L, 243 and quite a few others with a little less recoil than the 06. Not that it can't be done with an 06. I bought a used 1970's palma prone gun with all the bells and whistles and Redfield International sights for $600.00. It was a 7mm Mag. You can stumble on these gems once in a while. Hope this helps.
Chris

hi nester and Levergun59,

I am interested in the 300 m ISSF event. I believe it is no longer included in the Olympics. The .22 is for the 50 m event, but I am not interested in this event at all.

Where do I check for used target rifles? Any site devoted to such trades?

Also, is the 30-06 capable of being used successfully for the 300 m event?

Yes, .3006 can be used quite well. Tom Tamas shot some amazing prone with one up through the 2002 world championships. Too much abuse as far as I'm concerned. 6BR is the way to go. Less recoil, better in the wind. I wouldn't even try three position with an '06.

Eric U

Win. M70 30.06 can be use in ISSF 300m center fire event, from your posting looks like its the only ammo you can have easy acess to, however you'll need to consider a couple other factors:

For target shooting you'll need a M70 National Match Model, with heavy barrel and target sight, your $1,000 budget may be enough, but I'm afraid it won't be easy to find one in good condition, you can also consider the Remington 40X, which I think it will give you more options.

You can also consider buying a used heavy barrel varmint rifle such as Remington M700 Varmint Special in .243 Win. and have a target sight and stock fitted, of course that depend on if you can obtain ammo in your country since .308 and .223 is out of the question.

If you can hand load your own ammo without too much trouble in your country, I'll get a rifle in 6mm BR or the new .30 BR, however more likely or not this will go over your $1,000 budget.

I don't know whats your shooting skill, but 475/600 shoudn't be too diffcult for an shooter with some experience, and a M70 30.06 in good condition and match grade ammo should attain you objective with ease.

As for where to find a rifle for your need, you can always drop a line to the owner of this board, or try the links below:

http://www.champchoice.com/default.aspx

http://www.iss-internationalshootersservice.com/

I just downloaded te ISSF rule book, and it says there are no restrictions on rifles for 50 m and 300 m. I guess these are what were the Free Rifle events, as compared to the Standard Rifle event. I also browsed through the bleiker and grunig sites, and guess what, I dont see much difference in the two... ofcourse, it was only a cursory glance, and there are things nhich are not easily apparent to noobs like me.

I would have expected radical and innovative designs with free rifles, 2 inch dia straight cylinder barrels with fins for cooling, straight pull bolts, loooong, 30 inch barrels for higer accuracy... if it doesnt really matter if it is 50 m or 300 m, what goes? why are free rifles so much similar to standard rifles?

Free rifles are usually mechanically identical to standard rifles. The rules for Standard rifle were more concerned with the stock dimensions and overall weight. The only mechanical restriction was a minimum trigger weight of 1.5kg; this was a relic of the Standard rifle's origin in military service rifles, but also I suspect to allow commercial sporting rifle to be adapted. Some shooters have used the same barrel/action, and swapped stocks between classes.

I can't really see that a 2in diameter barrel would be good for Prone or 3-P shooting; the weight would be enormous, and nearly impossible to hold steady. Straight pull rifles have been used, Hammerli built successful 300m rifles from Schmidt-Rubin actions for many years. Is there any real advantage to a straight-pull that would offset the more complex bolt?

As for barrel length, many older 300m rifles, such as the Russian Tula MTS-13 did have 30in barrels. However is this needed for the 6mm BR cartridge that currently dominates?

Please correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is a thicker barrel is a stiffer barrel, which will repeatedly point at the same point when firing. Also, a longer barrel will give more velocity. While more velocity is not the criterion, it will also mean that a heavier bullet can be fired at a slower velocity. A heavier bullet should, in theory, be more tolerant of wind, thus more accurate.
It may well be physically impossible to hold a 2 inch round 30 inch long bar of steel steady for every shot in the match, I may be wrong on that. However, there still is opportunity for innovation in the free rifle. I dont see that happening and wonder why. Better cooling, stiffer barrels, faster and easier (if more complicated and loss of controlled feed) action, heavier bullets... I wonder if this is a conspiracy by match rifle manuacturers just to keep their inventory and costs low :) just kidding...

I have to wonder, as the OP was wanting to know if he could use .3006 in 300m shooting and then says the manufacturers aren't innovating... .3006 is about as archaic and backwards a round as you could possibly use in 300m competition. Maybe only an 8mm Mag round of some kind would be worse.

Also, just because 50m and 300m free rifle rules are relatively unrestricted...there is a weight limit. 8kg (~17.6lbs). Good luck getting that 2" dia straight 30" barrel (even with flutes) under that limit. It is unlikely that he has ever tried to hold a 17.6lb rifle for 60 shots prone, let alone a "normal" 13-14 pound gun.

Some (ok, most) of bostonviewer's comments lead me to believe he has no understanding of ballistics when he thinks his heavy and slow bullet is going to beat my highly streamlined and fast 6mm VLD in the wind. All he is going to do is get abused by the heavier recoil and I'm going to whup him in the wind at the target.

Having shot 300m for the better part of 20 years, and been a student of the technology, I'd say there has been more innovation in 300m rifles (and cartridges) in the last 12 years than in the entire 100 years before that.

Eric U

Eric U wrote: It is unlikely that he has ever tried to hold a 17.6lb rifle for 60 shots prone, let alone a "normal" 13-14 pound gun.

Some (ok, most) of bostonviewer's comments lead me to believe he has no understanding of ballistics...

Eric, you are absolutely right. I have no hesitation admitting I am a complete noob to big bore shooting.It is because this forum has experienced members like yourself that I became a member - to ask and learn.

The post about innovations in free rifles came after you yourself clarified that given the restrictions on calibres I have to face, a 30-06 can be used quiet well. It was a different thought, and I probably should have made a seperate post.

The heavy and slow was a typo - it should be heavy and fast. That is an advantage of a longer barrel, yes?

Heavy and fast isn't necessarily an advantage. Light and fast and streamlined are a great combination in a bullet. Some of the 7mm and 30cal bullets out there have great ballistic coefficients in some instances. But, to get them to go fast enough to make a difference you need a larger cartridge. The larger cartridge and larger bullet gives you much larger recoil. All you need to do is spend some time playing around with a ballistics program (Sierra's Infinity for instance) to understand that smaller, lighter and sleeker are better.

In 2002, Tom Tamas was shooting a .3006 with 190 grain bullets. I showed him on the computer, and on the target that the little old 6mmBR was shooting better in the wind than his '06, with about half the recoil. As an added bonus, the 6BR is an inherently accurate cartridge. It doesn't take much to get it to shoot well.

As another example...John Whidden won the Camp Perry long range championship three out of the last four years, and has been no lower than 2nd place in the last 6 years. He uses a plain-Jane .243 and beats all the others that shoot 6.5x284 and bigger cartridges (his is a HOT .243 load though). Ballistically the .243 he shoots is about the same or maybe a little less than the 6.5-284's, but he is able to shoot it better because he doesn't have to fight and get worn down by the recoil as much. These are his words, as I asked him why he shoots the smaller cartridge. Don't underestimate the impact that recoil can have on your ability to shoot well.

There is a limit to this advantage though. John probably gets around 1000 accurate shots through his barrel before it is burned out (more powder, more friction from the faster bullet). He also has more recoil with his .243 than we have in a 6BR, because of the higher powder mass and higher muzzle velocity...bullet weight being the same. It is typical to get 3000-5000 accurate rounds out of a 6BR. You can get even more out of a .308 for instance, but you can't get the same ballistics, not even with the 32" barrels the Palma shooters use.

There have been a few people trying to shoot a 6.5mm bullets at 300m, but they just don't get the same results as us 6mm shooters do. There are also some .22 cal and .20 cal bullet experiments going on (me included) but the results haven't really shown anything that will dethrone the 6BR yet.

Eric U

It will probably be said that I am nuts, but if you want a very accurate inexpensive rifle, consider getting a Savage. They have an unique system of a floating bolt head and barrel nut that combine to yield amazing accuracy without the expensive gunsmith "truing" of the action. You may not even need a custom barrel, although it may be hard to find a factory used one in the caliber of choice. You can probably pick up a cheap short action-hunting version and convert it with a match barrel and stock. The most difficult task will be finding a 300 meter stock.
Here is a web site about Savages:
http://savageshooters.com/SavageForum/index.php

Good Luck!
Ben

Also, you will have the option of interchangeable barrels. It is easy with the barrel nut system. You can have several calibers and/or barrel lengths to experiment.
I have a friend who built a Savage in 6BR and sold it after trying to work up an accurate load. Every group he shot in the thing was a one-holer. He said it was too boring to shoot.

I would have expected radical and innovative designs with free rifles, 2 inch dia straight cylinder barrels with fins for cooling, straight pull bolts, loooong, 30 inch barrels for higer accuracy... if it doesnt really matter if it is 50 m or 300 m, what goes? why are free rifles so much similar to standard rifles?

Standing and kneeling the accuracy of the rifle suddenly becomes secondary.

Gentlemen,

There is indeed a certain current flowing through the world!

This is my first post, and the reason I registered on this site is to post about my Hammerli 300 Meter Free Rifle!

It's a single-shot, straight pull model from the 1950's. Caliber .308 Winchester. While it currently wears a scope (which I installed) I do have the the iron sights that came with the rifle. It has double-set triggers, and they are set to mere ounces. The original hook buttplate was missing. i installed the one shown. I also have the palmrest. An extremely accurate rifle indeed.

I would like to communicate with someone who knows about these wonderful rifles. my own knowlege is rather limited.

If there is another forum more apporopriate to my question, could someone please direct me?

There are a number of those Hammerli straight pull rifles here in New Zealand. They are chambered in 7.5x55swiss though. Was your one rebarreled to be .308?

By the way, if I was getting into 300m I would build up my own rifle. I would use a Barnard action and a truflite barrel chambered in 6mmBR. In a multi adjustable aluminium stock of some kind.

Last year I got a Steyr CISM rifle brand new for 2000$.
They are not in production anymore but if you can find one it's a great deal.
Other rifles used in Switzerland for 300 mt are way too expensive (Tanner, Grunig Helmiger, etc) but you can get them in different calibers.
Here we just use the 7.5x55 mm military round simply because it's the tradition and because it costs 20 $ a box (60 rounds).
Other than that if you shoot with iron sights I do believe that you can not feel the difference between rifles, all of them are as accurate as the ability of the shooter.

Its a long time since my wife and I shot 300m (Malcolm Cooper era) but then we only used 7.62 , .308W to you guys over the pond.
Eric is spot on, the recoil gave the shooter a mauling! I can remember spending hours trying to reload a round that did not knock my wife off her feet standing and still be able to buck the wind.
The picture is her shooting 300m in 1981 with a Sportco .308 action in a Walther copy stock, with factory Lapua 170 gn ammo, and a 1500 gm trigger. They built them tough then!
Good shooting
Robin

j-team wrote:There are a number of those Hammerli straight pull rifles here in New Zealand. They are chambered in 7.5x55swiss though. Was your gun rebarreled to be .308?

As I have little actual information on the gun, I was told that toward the end of the run, during the 1950's, that some were made in .308 Winchester.

It could not be a re-barreled 7.5x55 Swiss. The bolt face of the Swiss is somewhat larger then .308 / 30/06. Brass would show excessive expansion @ the base from such a conversion. I reload all my ammunition. brtass is normal in size. I suppose it could be a re-barrel from 30/06 though.

Were the Hammerli straight-pull barrels drilled & tapped on the top for long, target scopes? This gun was D&T'ed in that manner when I bought it. It was easy to mount a Redfield 3200 (24X) with a pair of Weaver # 46 bases.

The quick-detatchable sights are: front sight is a US made Tompkins, the rear peep sight is a British made Parker Hale

I would like more information on the history of this fine rifle.

Best Regards,