TargetTalk

In 10m AP, if the shot accidentally goes off during the wrong stage of my prepare-raise-aim-fire-followup cycle and the pellet ends up in

a) the wall slightly above or below the target,
b) the ceiling,
c) the floor,

have I broken some rule? In which cases, a), b), c)? What rule?

(Let's assume that the shot missed the target not due to a sudden jerk, but simply because the pistol wasn't pointed at the target).

b) and c): 6.2.2.4
...The action, breech or loading device must not be closed until the gun is pointing down range in a safe direction toward the target / butt stop area... is applied as not only 'until the gun is pointing down range in a safe direction' but includes whenever the pistol/rifle is loaded and the action closed.

Increasingly at Technical Meetings the limits for the spcific ranges on the venue are being specified under 6.2.1.

From what you described as long as those things you listed were down range I don't see it as a rule infraction, it is a zero.

Richard H wrote:From what you described as long as those things you listed were down range I don't see it as a rule infraction, it is a zero.

Increasingly, limits to how high are being given at Technical Meetings and his example 'b) the ceiling' can be expected to get a yellow card for the first occurence of raising the pistol too high.

A Jury could also consider 6.10.6.8 (note the 'or')

Either way: yes, the shot would be a zero

So it is indeed possible to raise your air pistol TOO high, and to have it pointed TOO low, when its resting on the bench, an instant before you raise your arm? Well, I guess I can see how 6.2.2.4 could be interpreted that way, but it's not very explicitly stated. Also, it can't be too easy to inforce such a rule accurately (in cases where the shot did hit the target and not e.g. the ceiling, i.e. there is no "evidence").

I don't have personal experience of possible rule infractions like this, but according to a rumour I heard, some Russian juniors (somewhat recently?) were completely baffled at an international match when the range officials suddenly demanded that they would not raise their air pistols so high...

I'll have a look at 6.2.1 and 6.10.6.8 ...

nc513 wrote:So it is indeed possible to raise your air pistol TOO high, and to have it pointed TOO low, when its resting on the bench, an instant before you raise your arm? Well, I guess I can see how 6.2.2.4 could be interpreted that way, but it's not very explicitly stated. Also, it can't be too easy to inforce such a rule accurately (in cases where the shot did hit the target and not e.g. the ceiling, i.e. there is no "evidence").

I don't have personal experience of possible rule infractions like this, but according to a rumour I heard, some Russian juniors (somewhat recently?) were completely baffled at an international match when the range officials suddenly demanded that they would not raise their air pistols so high...

I'll have a look at 6.2.1 and 6.10.6.8 ...

re evidence - even range officials have access to digital cameras (without flash)

re juniors completely baffled - you mean that their coach/es were remiss (negligent?) in letting the shooters learn habits that could get them warnings? Surely a coach would never do such (sarcasm intended)?

Spencer wrote:Increasingly, limits to how high are being given at Technical Meetings and his example 'b) the ceiling' can be expected to get a yellow card for the first occurence of raising the pistol too high.

A Jury could also consider 6.10.6.8 (note the 'or')

Either way: yes, the shot would be a zero

At the recent world championships, limits were not mentioned at the technical meeting and shooters were able to raise pretty much where they liked (certainly in air pistol). I too would have expected the shooters to raise within the limits of the back stop, but an awful lot were raising well into the ceiling and none were spoken to that I noticed, and shooters near where I was certainly shot the match the same way.

In my limited experience of international matches, it appears the rules were not applied as harshly at such major matches as they are for example at some of the smaller internationals, or even national competitions. It is of course down to the range staff and juries to apply the rules as they deem appropriate as rules are there in part to aid smooth running of the events (whilst safety is obviously paramount).

Rob.

I don't think you have to worry about pointing it to low for it does at some point always point at the floor down range. But many ranges do have rules with regards to how you can raise a pistol, it usually not higher than the backstop.

The high raises really do seem to be a staple of the Elite bunch, not many but a few raise in the 70 degree vertical territory. It is bad habit to pick up as it can run you around of range rules even if you don't discharge the pistol into the ceiling.

Spencer
I have seen at open shoots here in Victoria, one very highly credentialed female shooter consistently point her .22 pistol towards the ceiling as she pulls the slide to cock it. Another, one of Australia's top juniors frequently rests her wrist on the table with the barrel of her cocked pistol pointing across range at about a 45 degree angle while waiting for the second to tick by after loading. Why their coaches do not pick up these things I do not understand.
I have pointed out such infractions to range officers who have told me they aren't going to do anything because they don't want to incur the wrath of a coach, or other official. It is a pity that safety aspects are ignored for such reasons.
By the way, not everyone is too scared to have a quiet word with a shooter if they are stretchjing the regulations. In one instance a couple of years ago I was correctly given a warning for cocking my revolver with the barrel pointing pointing upwards at a 45 degree angle.

I think I know who you are meaning - funny, they don't seem to do it when I'm on the range...

I guess its a shame that rules are not equally applied by all range officers and juries, but they are only human <yes honestly ;) >

Rob.

When I straighten my arm and wrist just before raising my AP, the front of the gun (well, the air cylinder actually) will still be resting on the bench, but the grip won't. At this stage, the pistol will most definitely be pointing into the bench or to the floor. I'd need a *very* tall bench for this not to happen. If this is a rule infraction, am I supposed to straighten my arm only *after* lifting the pistol from the bench, or what? Sounds awkward.

RobStubbs wrote:but they are only human

How dare you ;-)

nc513 wrote:If this is a rule infraction, am I supposed to straighten my arm only *after* lifting the pistol from the bench, or what?

I would like to think that most range officials would apply a bit of common sense, or the "READY" position for 25m might be a bit uncomfortable.

nc513 wrote:When I straighten my arm and wrist just before raising my AP, the front of the gun (well, the air cylinder actually) will still be resting on the bench, but the grip won't. At this stage, the pistol will most definitely be pointing into the bench or to the floor. I'd need a *very* tall bench for this not to happen. If this is a rule infraction, am I supposed to straighten my arm only *after* lifting the pistol from the bench, or what? Sounds awkward.

Many taller shooters, myself included, 'raise' the height of the bench by placing the pistol's case or a range box (Pelican box in at least two cases that I know of) on the bench so we don't have our pistols pointing toward the bench when in the position you describe.

You might like to try it. I've found that my shoulder muscles benefit a little from doing this and this benefit is most noticable toward the end of the match, which is an added benefit.

Cheers,

nc513 wrote:When I straighten my arm and wrist just before raising my AP, the front of the gun (well, the air cylinder actually) will still be resting on the bench, but the grip won't. At this stage, the pistol will most definitely be pointing into the bench or to the floor. I'd need a *very* tall bench for this not to happen. If this is a rule infraction, am I supposed to straighten my arm only *after* lifting the pistol from the bench, or what? Sounds awkward.

In air pistol, it is OK to have the action closed and the pistol pointing at the floor in front of your firing point. Most shooters do that. The original qustion had to do with shooting shots into the floor or ceiling. As a range officer, I would deal with this as a safety issue. If you shoot one shot into the floor or ceiling, that can happen, but you might get a yellow card. If you shoot more than one shot into the floor or ceiling, I would assume that it was either 1) an unsafe gun or 2) an unsafe shooter. Either way, you risk being disqualified.