TargetTalk

Active duty Military Officer with 22 yrs in and would like to compete in Camp Perry and earn the Presidents 100 tab. (ulitmate goal).

I'm leaning towaryd competing with M9 but just spoke with Sams Custom shop, 1 yr wait and $1860.00 if you provide the pistol, wow.

Easier to go rifle?

What do I need to compete?

Anyone been there done that?

Starting from ground zero so any and all info would be welcome.

1st Post, thanks.
Stationed at Fort Leavenworth, KS.

I am getting closer to it, after three years at Camp Perry. I have several friends who regularly make it with 45's so a Sams M9 is not necessary although it would be my preferred gun. I have two of them but one is on loan to a high master shooter. I have a former friend who has been trying for distinguished and the presidents hundred for about seven years now. He was high master with high power rifle and distinguished. He practiced all the time with irons on all his bullseye guns, and shot a 45 the first several years at Camp Perry, It did not help. He actually started going backwards, shot his best score at his first LEG match and it was all downhill from there. He bought a Sam's M9 last year, it still didn't help. Are you primarily a pistol or a rifle shooter? If you have spent a lot of time shooting rifle, it may hinder you as a pistol shooter, because more than likely you will spend too much timed admiring your sight picture and not get the shot off while your hold is good. Rifle shooting is a science. Pistol shooting is an art, and shooting a large caliber one handed with iron sights is a learned skill that will require lots of practice. What kills most people on their scores is two slow fire targets at 50 yards for the presidents match. Your gun must be good and you must be good because very few people making the President's hundred have done it by accident and there are several masters and high masters in bullseye, who have not made it. You have to be both good and have a good day. :-)

I made Presidents 100 and Distinguished Pistol in 1989. Yep, that's 21 years ago. I was age 39 at that time and I have never shot that well since. My vision and upper body strength have diminished and my physical endurance is about gone.

If you are going to give it a try, do it now. Physical exercise is absolutly mandatory. Practice with the gun you plan on using, using soft ball ammo, but occasionally try a match with hardball ammo. I have a few friends that damaged their shoulder with too much hardball .45 ACP.

Above all practice the fundamentals of shooting. It also helps to shoot some matches to get used to match pressure.

Good luck and never quit!

I have not made it yet, but I am Distinguished (since 1998). The M9 is easier to shoot in sustained fire, but most folks lose the match in slow fire.

If you're paying your own way, get a .45 and practice.

Physical endurance is something you can work on. Vision can be corrected with a good set of shooting glasses. One of my friends who has made Presidents hundred for the last 6 years turned 69 this year. The other friend who has made it four times in the last 5 years turns 60 in another couple of weeks. Both shot a 45 in the match. However if you want the tab for your uniform I guess you need to do it before you retire. In which case, I want to advise you not to make it your only goal. If you do not really enjoy shooting pistol and practicing with it, you will put too much pressure on yourself for that ONE MATCH and your head will get in your way as you focus on the wrong goal, a tab, rather than becoming the best pistol shooter you can be, and enjoying the journey to a "possible" President's Hundred tab.

All good info.
Primary pistol shooter, but qualify expert with M4 every time, but Army standards are not hard and even easier with aimpoints now.
Still weighing all the options. I had no idea of the expense involved.

The Army's Marksmanship Unit would be an excellent resource for you to get proper info on competing for the tab:

http://www.usaac.army.mil/amu/

Sure hope to be on the same 100 list as you someday...

I concur with MIJeff, since you are active duty the AMU may provide you some help. They might even possibly sign you out a gun and an AMU accurized M9 is just as good as a David Sam's one. After all he was the guy who made it work for them back in the 90's. They are putting on a pistol shooting clinic in November that is free. You might talk to them and see if you are advanced enough to attend and get something out of it. Isabel

I came close in pistol. I earned the bronze medal for finishing in the top 10% of the civilians competing in the match. Getting your tab is an expensive proposition in either rifle or pistol as far as the equipment goes. There is a shortcut as mentioned above. Start with the best teachers you can find or afford. Start a conditioning program and read all the recommended books on the subject. You do not have to start with the best equipment. Buying a used bullseye gun and a 22 pistol will get you going. You upgrade your equipment as you begin to outshoot it, which takes you a little while. Most of all, just have fun. Hope this helps.
Chris

Ok, you want to shoot well in the Presidents and NIT? Well, the absolute first thing most people probably need to do is put away the .45 or 9mm or at least hide it for a while and get a decent .22 with open sights. Then we can learn how to shoot with open sights, without all the bang and recoil so we can actually work on seeing the front sight for a change.

I mean really look at that thing and understand how all that other stuff we've been thinking and talking about (grip, stance, position, trigger finger placement, press, eyesight) affects the position of the front sight with respect to rear sight.

It don't matter if we use center hold, or 6:00 or sub - six or your neighbors target frame, you can use the screws on the back sight to get the shots into the center of black anytime IF the front sight maintains a consistent and dependable relationship (alignment) with the rear sight.

I know a lot of people will say get the .45 or get the 9mm or get this load or that, and I'm sure it will help. But the main thing is to really, really see and understand that front sight.

If it doesn't look like the big black monolith on 2001, Space Odessy, then we ain't looking at it properly.

So, while there are many other things we can do to work on the CMP matches, I will always say that going to the .22 and working on open sight shooting will get anyone a long way down the road to distinguished and Presidents.

Cecil Rhodes

See if you can get an M9 and a 1911 to try. It doesn't have to be an accurate model of either but just to try them to see which fits in your hand better. The trigger on an M9, even with a trigger shoe is quite far back and I have problems pulling it straight to the rear compared to a 1911 but you may be the opposite. To me the recoil is about the same the 9mm being sharper and the 1911 pushing harder but a (good)M9 will be a bit more accurate at 50 yards than a good 1911. If you have a real afinity with slowfire compared to time and rapid, and can handle the trigger being so far back, I think it would be an advantage, however not a real large one. The thing to remember though is that just a few points might put you in that 100 or not. I think that most people would be adament about which they prefer so take your time picking.

What Cecil said. With emphasis. 22 years Service? I would guess you are at least 40ish. Get the eyes checked to see the front sight with eagle eyes. Refer to Dr Wong's articles. Then learn the front sight thoroughly.

Use a Marvel Precision/Bob Marvel/Advantage Arms type 22 unit over a hardball setup lower.

CR10X wrote:Ok, you want to shoot well in the Presidents and NIT? Well, the absolute first thing most people probably need to do is put away the .45 or 9mm or at least hide it for a while and get a decent .22 with open sights. Then we can learn how to shoot with open sights, without all the bang and recoil so we can actually work on seeing the front sight for a change.

I mean really look at that thing and understand how all that other stuff we've been thinking and talking about (grip, stance, position, trigger finger placement, press, eyesight) affects the position of the front sight with respect to rear sight.

It don't matter if we use center hold, or 6:00 or sub - six or your neighbors target frame, you can use the screws on the back sight to get the shots into the center of black anytime IF the front sight maintains a consistent and dependable relationship (alignment) with the rear sight.

I know a lot of people will say get the .45 or get the 9mm or get this load or that, and I'm sure it will help. But the main thing is to really, really see and understand that front sight.

If it doesn't look like the big black monolith on 2001, Space Odessy, then we ain't looking at it properly.

So, while there are many other things we can do to work on the CMP matches, I will always say that going to the .22 and working on open sight shooting will get anyone a long way down the road to distinguished and Presidents.

Cecil Rhodes

I have been saying this for years (well, maybe not quite as eloquently). You don't need to blow out your elbow shooting thousands of rounds of hardball to shoot it well.

IMO the biggest challenge modern bullseye shooters have with hardball is shooting iron sights. They're not difficult, they're just different. Or, just different enough from the other 95% of the shooting that bullseye shooters do with red dots.

I made P100 the first time as a scrawny 14-year-old kid and - although I did have the advantage of good equipment, good coaching, and not enough self-awareness to know any better - one of the main reasons was because I was shooting 2700s with all iron sights.

Yeah, what Cecil and John said

Is the P100 tab authorized to be worn by USAF enlisted?

Thanks.

Just to add my experience to what CR10X and John are saying: I got my distinguished badge but could not make the P 100. I then thought I was good with iron sights, but later I seriously took up International shooting I learned that I was just a rookie with irons. As strange as it seems, shooting a lot of air pistol will help a lot, dispite the big differences in recoil, trigger weight and grip angle. Learning to shoot iron sights is a big part of the skill set needed.

Best Regards,
Slo cat
11 times Presidents 100 (all 1911A1)

Orion,

I believe the Army is the only service that allows wearing of the P 100 tab, my best guess as I have not seen it worn by the other military services at Camp Perry.

GO NAVY! BEAT ARMY!
Proud father of a USNA 2005 graduate.

This subject came up on the National Match forum this summer. I believe the outcoume was that the P100 tab (or brassard, as the case may be) is worn by:

Army, all ranks
Navy, enlisted only

But is not authorized by the USMC or USAF.

For a more definitive answer, ask here:
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.usafsports.com/Sports/Shooting.htm