TargetTalk

Igor has some excellent statistical info at http://toz35.blogspot.com/

You should go and read, but I'll summarize.

Free pistol is dominated by Morini. They've got 60% of the market, Toz-35s are another 30%. If you look at the statistics Scott Pilkington has put out, this shift to Morini has been going on for a while.

Morini and Steyr are fighting over men's air pistol, each has about a third of the market. Walther and FWB are also in the fight. Steyr has the edge with the women, approaching 50%. Probably the big change from the past is that makers other than Steyr and Morini are making serious inroads.

Rapid Fire is owned by Pardini. They are at 70%.

Centerfire is really competitive. Pardini, Walther, and Hammerli all have a good chunk of the market.

Standard is running 50% Pardini...with a third of those being the RF version. Seems like the "one gun for everything" approach might be catching on. I was surprised at the low numbers of FWB AW-93s, and the absence of Hammerli 208s. Given the popularity of these guns for NRA bullseye, I would have expected more of them.

FWB gets it's own back in Sport Pistol, with 30% of the women shooting them. Pardini is about the same.

Draw your own conclusions.

Oh, fie...I'll draw some:

In FP, the Toz-35 is competitive, but losing ground to the Morini, I suspect as the older shooters using Toz-35s retire. A $500 Toz is a good buy, but if cost is no object, get the Morini.

AP is a real fight, particularly with Feinwerkbau and Walther fielding new pistols. You'll have to shoot them and decide what suits you best.

For the other events, Pardini is the gun to beat. The AW93 holds its own in WSP. And the old Walther GSP is surprisingly competitive.

I think a lot of the Toz-Morini issue is the fact that Morini still makes their pistol. Toz parts are getting harder to find and will only get harder. I suspect if Steyr came up with a new Free pistol (that was a good Free Pistol) it would capture a sizeable chunk of the market too.

No real surprises.

Well, both Men's RF and Women's 25m pistol were won with Benelli MP90...

Interesting statistics...

But please keep in mind: STEYR had 50 per cent of the finalists and 4 out of 6 medals - both gold even (men's and women's competition).

It is not only the quantity that counts... :)

So still (or better AGAIN 'cause it's different shooters): All present Olympic and world champions in Olympic air pistol disciplines use STEYR.

Quite happy about that.

STEYR Sportwaffen wrote:Interesting statistics...

But please keep in mind: STEYR had 50 per cent of the finalists and 4 out of 6 medals - both gold even (men's and women's competition).

It is not only the quantity that counts... :)

So still (or better AGAIN 'cause it's different shooters): All present Olympic and world champions in Olympic air pistol disciplines use STEYR.

Quite happy about that.

Don't also forget that the best gun going into the mens AP finals was not a Steyr, I think it was a match gun. So in mens AP, I 'think' after the finals it went, Steyr, Walther, Walther.

And of course the new Walther is out and will be available around the end of the year, and that may well put the cat amongst the pigeons.

What other piece of info would be useful to know, is which manufacturer pays their shooters the most money ? (that's a rhetorical question, I don't expect an answer)

Rob.

P.S. I shoot a Steyr and am more than happy with it, just trying to present a more complete breakdown of the information

Nope, men's final ended STEYR (Matsuda/JPN), Walther (Zlatic/SRB), STEYR (Jin/KOR).
Gold and Bronze with LP 10 E with electronic trigger.
There are no bad pistols anymore, only good ones and very good ones. And it's a matter of taste and likings of the shooter, too.

You are right, no need to talk about the sponsoring of the shooters and nations. One look at the investments of the two companies during the Worlds tells enough.

Great to hear that you are a happy STEYR shooter!

Just imagine how the statistics would look if there was a competitive Steyr free pistol... ;-)

I thought the top 10m pistol shooters were given a pistol for 'free' if they would use it, just for the advertizing.

Interrsting to see the fast penetration of the LP10E after being less than one year on the market !

I am not as experienced as all of you probably are, but my opinion is to just get the one that suits you the most. All of them will probably out shoot you, it all depends on how well it fits you.

RobStubbs wrote:What other piece of info would be useful to know, is which manufacturer pays their shooters the most money ? (that's a rhetorical question, I don't expect an answer)

This question, whether rhetorical or not, has been asked many times in many places over the years.

If a top shooter can get sponsorship, monetary and/or equipment, from manufacturers then good luck to him/her.

I refuse to believe that any top shooter would risk losing a major match or their ranking by using a gun they did not believe gave them the best chance of success.

Similarly, what manufacturer would pay a top shooter lots of money to shoot an unsuitable gun, only to become known as the manufacturer who caused shooter X to fall down the rankings. They will pay for success, and that only comes when shooters use suitable equipment.

Millsbomb, I think you are correct. At one time, I was somewhat of a top shooter. Styer gave me an AP to shoot, their CO2 model. I shot it for a while and liked it alot. Then Walther gave me one of their CO2 models, which I liked very well too, still shoot it. Walther also gave me their first compressed air model. My point is this...no higher than I was up the ladder, the top shooters now are almost for sure not paying for their their air pistols. The exception might be Pardini. I had a Pardini rep tell me recently that Pardini has a company policy that they do not "pay" anyone to shoot their pistol. As stated, all these ap's shoot one hole groups. You could give these top shooters any one of these models and they would still shoot world class scores. Their choice is one of personal preference, because the do want to win. However, they may be rewarded in other ways for winning big competitions. My guess is that Steyr and Morini might be particularly generous in giving away guns. Their business is very good at all levels of competition and they can probably easily afford this method of advertising.

Carefully read the interviews with Mikhail Nestruev that are around. He used a (obviously sponsored) Benelli Kite for a European Championship some years ago, but otherwise was always seen for years with a FWB P34 or a Steyr LP10 in AP. Could be that's even in Scott's interview - he said somewhere that he could shoot 590 with both pistols, but it took less training with the Steyr, so he'd use that - even if he would get paid for using something else. And that's what he did. What use is a world class shooter as marketing representative if he doesn't win? I can't believe any top shooter would compromise his chances of winning by using a pistol he didn't believe in, even if it's for free or even supported.

I think some companies (especially Morini) try to get in business with national shooting organisations and get their pistols in at "ground level" there. A lot of young chinese shooters seem to have Morini pistols when they first arrive on the scene, only to switch to Steyr later on...

David Levene wrote: I refuse to believe that any top shooter would risk losing a major match or their ranking by using a gun they did not believe gave them the best chance of success.

You would have noticed, I'm sure, that there are some top shooters who have used equipment that you might not normally expect them to use.

But only in the "inter olympic" years, after which they go back to what they had before, having banked the cheque!

Don Nygord won the California State AP Championship in 1979, held in the City of Commerce, with a Daisy 717. (see article at: http://www.novatech-group.com/bullseye/daisy717.pdf )
He did a trigger job on it, and changed the sights. I believe the Daisy came from the factory with an Anschutz barrel. Don modified them and made them available to others for a total price of $100 delivered.

So, is the score a product of the pistol, or the guy attached to the grip?

The pistol can help quite a bit; it clearly has to be above some minimum threshold of accuracy and repeatability.

But in the end it is the accessory human attached to the grip. Don Nygord is the classic proof of that.

Daisy 747 has Lothar Walther barrel and "adjustable" trigger.
Daisy 777 had wooden grip on top of that, now discontinued.
The 717 has a Daisy barrel and no adjustment.

does anyone know how Igor collected his data. I was there, and I don't recall any form of data collection. Unless he had a chance to go through the copies of equipment control forms. But that would only indicate what handguns were checked, not what was used.

al-sway wrote:does anyone know how Igor collected his data. I was there, and I don't recall any form of data collection. Unless he had a chance to go through the copies of equipment control forms. But that would only indicate what handguns were checked, not what was used.

I had special ID-card and allowed cross the public view border... but i was not allowed cross shooter personal zone (1x1m?).

For difficult cases I had a glass with me but most of the pistols are easy to identify. The only problem was UNIQUE, Manurhin und Hämmerli P240 since i have never seen those guns live.

I also have possibility to access issf statistics data but i don't like to ask. This information must be free and public by default.

Thanks. I thought that might have been the way that you did it. Lots of work!