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Target aid - can someone explain why it worked
Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:03 pm
by darticus
Normally I shoot the normal 10 meter target, Today I modified one slightly and got great results. Usually I aim at 6 o'clock and one inch below the 7 ring. Usually with good results but a mixture of 10's - 7s, mostly 10's - 8s. Today I put a horizontal line with a marker about one inch long where I usually aim the top of my front sight on the target. when I placed the sight on the line I shot all 10's and 9's. maybe I have a concentration problem with the normal target. Anyone think this is a useful shooting aid?
Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:10 pm
by RB6
when I placed the sight on the line I shot all 10's and 9's.
Here's the reason that you dumped the 7 and 8's, It's because you were looking at the front sight. Like you said , " I placed the front sight " on whatever. You were looking at the front sight to place it . You were looking at the front sight.
Any time that you are looking at the target and or switching looking at the sights/target , you will get a generous amount of 7 and 8's.
When you start looking at the front sight and center it in the notch and let the trigger break the shot without ever looking at the target, then you will get a generous amount of 9 and 10's , as the saying goes, shooting center.
You have just made the first step in what all the coaches have said forever
" Look at the front sight , center it in the rear notch, press the trigger straight to the rear and the shot will go center, all day long , every day" .
.
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:08 am
by Makris D. G.
What you did actually negates any advantage of aiming sub-six.
Maybe it worked for you because it was something new causing you
to concentrate better, but you just gave your self a reason to look at the target.
Aim
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:18 pm
by schatzperson
My shooting shows a similar effect as darticus mentions in both AP and now CF.
So much so that I have given up sub 6 and just go for what seems to me a near 6 o'clock hold.
Whatever I do, I appear to need a rock solid foundation vertical reference.
I dont want to appear presumptuos and say that my method is the correct one; In fact I think that I shoot the way I do because I am not an evolved enough shooter.
From what I've seen in my case, the vertical errors are congruent, not with sight alignment, but with where I am placing the aligned sights on the target.
Everything said, I ahve to admit that I am a technical shooter with little faith in the "force", so holding in some indeterminate area below the black, causes my brain to go into rebellion mode.
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:52 pm
by darticus
Interesting!
So what allows for the better concentration? Is it that you barely see the target but see the horizontal lines I put on the target and put the sight on the horizontal line. In the case of the 6 o'clock hold position is this right under the black center, spotting the edge on the black with the sight or below in the 6 ring or below?
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:56 pm
by darticus
darticus wrote:Interesting!
So what allows for the better concentration? Is it that you barely see the target but see the horizontal lines I put on the target and put the sight on the horizontal line. In the case of the 6 o'clock hold position is this right under the black center, spotting the edge on the black with the sight or below in the 6 ring or below?
Also I forgot to mention I removed the black center in this test only leaving the ring lines. So its a solid off white target with just ring lines and the horizontal lines I added with a thick marker.
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:50 pm
by Rover
There is an article on this subject in the latest issue of USAShooting magazine written by Teresa Meyer.
In the article she states that National Pistol Coach Sergey Luzov told her to switch to a sub six aiming area and that the majority of of International competitors were using it.
Don't let this stop anyone from fussing about it, though.
The magazine does have really excellent articles by top shooters in every issue. You should join (if you're not a member) just to get the magazine.
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:01 pm
by RB6
In the article she states that National Pistol Coach Sergey Luzov told her to switch to a sub six aiming area and that the majority of of International competitors were using it.
If the majority of international shooters are air or free pistol, it would make perfect sense to use sub six, but likely not if the venue is sport pistol or center fire . I don't know how anyone can shoot that huge black duello target sub six. So you are back to shooting center of mass. So why not just learn to shoot that way in the first place
In free , air and NRA bullseye venues, sub six does have advantages .
Shooting mens centerfire and womens sport pistol venues with subsix on the precision stage and shooting center for the duello target would be leaving points on the table as opposed to a shooter that justs shoots center of mass on both stages
.
Reference
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:27 pm
by schatzperson
Darticus, my point is that, rightly or not, I seem to need a a vertical reference, and for this I use a 6 o'clock hold; If I try a subsix I go into vertical stringing.
Dont know if I'm wrong , but I am equating this with your mention of to using a marker line as reference.
Naturally, I am not saying that my 6 hold is better than a sub 6, but it seems to cure my vertical stringing. I am assuming this is because it gives me a vertical reference.
Sorry, forgot to add that when I sopke of my CF practice with 6 hold, I meant for the Slow fire part.
I am just a newbie in CF and this far, I think that for rapid, I do ok shooting with pistol "somewhere" on the rise.
Dont want to hijack this thread, but RB6 merntioned "shooting to centre of mass" and be done with the issue of sub this and sub that.
I ahve to admit that this might be a neat solution.
Its just that all these years of going for sub 6 on a nice contrasty white background are difficult to shake off.
But maybe there is something valid in a simple elegant solution.
Re: Target aid - can someone explain why it worked
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:51 pm
by Philadelphia
darticus wrote:Normally I shoot the normal 10 meter target, Today I modified one slightly and got great results. Usually I aim at 6 o'clock and one inch below the 7 ring. Usually with good results but a mixture of 10's - 7s, mostly 10's - 8s. Today I put a horizontal line with a marker about one inch long where I usually aim the top of my front sight on the target. when I placed the sight on the line I shot all 10's and 9's. maybe I have a concentration problem with the normal target. Anyone think this is a useful shooting aid?
I discovered early on that I shoot much smaller groups when shooting at smaller targets. You might be doing a number of different things but what I learned from my predicament was that in shooting to hit the smallest target I could see, my shot process was much more rigorous than that used to try to hit the center of the black on a regulation target. If that is the case for you, figure out if and where your shot process differs and use the more rigorous shot process all the time and not just when you have the reference line.
To answer your question, yes, it is a useful shooting aid to help you to determine what it is you do (differently) in order to shoot tens and nines, if you don't otherwise already do that.
Post Subject
Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 4:11 pm
by 2650 Plus
Commenting on the reference to the opinion of the Rusian coach. I do not agree that all shooting knowledge resides with them. Let me give an example. Tha national three gun record in the US was set around 1954 by Hershel Anderson, This record , now 45 years old was shot using center hold , Herchel often made the point when another shooter was extoling the value of the hold he usedby saying " Have you shot 2680 yet ?" The American record consists of 270 shots fired with three different calibers, 22, Center fire, And 45. Mr Andersons score was 2680 by 2700. I believe that with excelent eye sight center hold has certain advantages, Remember how our rifle shooters take advantage of the eyes abilityto use a semetrtical relationship seems to exceed what it can do with an asemetrical relationship. Ergo, a round bull observed through a round front sight apperature with the rear sight being also a round apperature is the system producing world records. Applied to the pistol the eye can verry easilydetermine the exact center of the bullseye so that makes some sense for establishing the hold area using center hold. At a minimum, the shooter has a stable reference point for the center of his/ her hold area. But as each shooter must determine what works best for him /her I can only sugest that you give center hold a try Good SHooting Bill Horton
Target aid - can someone explain why it worked
Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:13 am
by schatzperson
Bill Horton makes a good case.
My problem with centre hold is eyesight and I suspect its also the case with others.
Years ago, young and foolish, we built a sort of diopter sight on an old Flobert pistol. It ended up looking more like an antique tube sight and if I remember well gave us aperture trouble because of the short sightbase.
But it seemed to work well in a fashion.
Oh, for the exhuberant optimism of youth !
Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:26 am
by Makris D. G.
I think most replies are missing that Darticus is not just shooting sub six, he actually drew a horizontal line on the target to align his sights with...
Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:14 pm
by ColinC
I had an experience which gives me some understanding of what Darticus is talking about. A few years ago I used a borrowed free pistol, wound the sights the wrong way, the screw and spring came out and I was in a muddle.
Being still in my sighting series, I fired 2-3 shots but couldn't see where they were hitting until I raised the scope and saw they were hitting a newly painted board between the bottom sighter target and the scoring target.
I shot the whole match aiming at the horizontal strip of wood between the two targets and that score is still my best ever for the match. I think the horizontal reference point was a big advantage, especially when the bullets were hitting about 18 inches above where I was aiming.
Oh Yes, after the match I figured out how to reassemble the rear sights.
I now shoot sub six area aim for Air and Free, 6 o'clock for standard and the precision stage of Centrefire, the centre for the duelling stage of CF and, believe it or not, I do not alter my .22 sights for rapidfire which means I am shooting about 6 inches below those handy white horizontal reference lines.
Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:21 pm
by darticus
ColinC wrote:I had an experience which gives me some understanding of what Darticus is talking about. A few years ago I used a borrowed free pistol, wound the sights the wrong way, the screw and spring came out and I was in a muddle.
Being still in my sighting series, I fired 2-3 shots but couldn't see where they were hitting until I raised the scope and saw they were hitting a newly painted board between the bottom sighter target and the scoring target.
I shot the whole match aiming at the horizontal strip of wood between the two targets and that score is still my best ever for the match. I think the horizontal reference point was a big advantage, especially when the bullets were hitting about 18 inches above where I was aiming.
Oh Yes, after the match I figured out how to reassemble the rear sights.
I now shoot sub six area aim for Air and Free, 6 o'clock for standard and the precision stage of Centrefire, the centre for the duelling stage of CF and, believe it or not, I do not alter my .22 sights for rapidfire which means I am shooting about 6 inches below those handy white horizontal reference lines.
Something with watching a horizontal line of some type. Maybe not the line but a horizontal space or object which aids your shot.
Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:51 pm
by luftskytter-
Many interesting things here:
"Aim small, miss small" has been accepted "wisdom" as long as I can remember shooting. Using a scope is basically the same.....
Concentrating on a horizontal line makes you let the subconscious take care of horizontal error. Our ability to see symmetry helps here:
All kinds of normal aiming makes use of this......
In archery aiming along a line is a wellknown method for tuning equipment. It's accepted that not having to worry about two directions at the same time improves aiming/shooting accuracy quite a lot.
With a black bullseye target we have the problem of missing contrast/detail with black sight against black target, so we choose sub six to get some white into the sight picture. I don't find this ideal, and I am pleased to see these accepted thruths challenged in this forum. Many sports have been revolutionized in recent times by "heretics". I'm probably a heretic too, but my shooting isn't good enough to create a following. I'm also prepared to see my ideas proved wrong. That's OK.