TargetTalk

My prone position is getting really frustrating. When on the scatt I average around a 398 per 40 shots.

Well My NPA is ALWAYS to the left. No matter what i do it is moving over to the left. After about 10 shots my right hand will begin to touch my left arm. But the biggest difficulty though is the pain in my neck. I stopped shooting on the scatt today after 10 shots because my trap was in alot of pain.

What should I do? Any help would be greatly welcomed
matt

Matt, I too had a similar problem minus the neck pain. I found my sling was pulling too much from the outside thus, causing the rifle too poiint left of the target. I now have the sling coming straight out and have no more problems. Could be by pulling too much that would cause neck pain.

my problem is my neck will just go crazy with spasms at time when i stay in one prostion to long .so i basically try to move a little each time when getting into prostion for the shot so that i can relax and move back into locked prostion for the shot...plus i do not use a sling when shooting

iam just getting into the NRA prone 50 yard shooting program ..so a lot of my prostion shooting ..so iam still learning the game ..

a photo of you in position would really help

Are you using sight raiser blocks?
Those can be part of the problem in both ways - to many or to few, causing a unnatural position of your head.

(When I removed one of the two I used, my neck problems disappeared.)

First of all, you mention that your RIGHT hand is nearly touching your LEFT arm. That is NOT good.

First of all, your position must be very low in order for your right hand to even come close to your left arm or elbow. You need to raise your position. If your loading arm is the right distance away, pull back your handstop, shorten your sling, and get a higher position. Go for 40 degrees of angle and you will end up dipping between 30-35 degrees.

Second. In order for your rt hand to even close to your left arm or elbow, your position needs to spread out to the right - geometrically. The gun should be positioned at least an inch to 2 inches to the rt over the left elbow. If you are too far over the left elbow, you are compromising some basic necessities that enable consistent, comfortable steadiness.

Third. Establish a head position that DOESN'T hurt first and build the positional changes (above) around a comfortable cheek weld.

Hope that helps. Bart

thank you for the info about the prostion ..i am still in the learning stage and have a lot to learn about the prone shooting ..

i learning a things about the problem of moveing in and out of prostion when i learn over to check the shot on the scope then move back into prostion ..

again thank you for info about the shooting prostion

You need to set up your scope so you do not need to move in and out of position to use it. You should just have to tip your head slightly to the side (use left eye to spot if you are right handed shooter).

Also, you will not be able to build a solid prone position without a sling.

Thanks guys i will try to get a picture of my prone position up. asap.
matt

I've got a similar issue...

Bart, how would you go about getting the position to be solid under recoil once you move it to the right? I shoot mostly high power and have a very inline position. It feels really stable and controls recoil well, but when I try to get the gun a little to the right of my elbow, I can't get the same feel. Like the OP, my right hand can touch my left arm. When I've rolled farther to my right (shorter handstop and sling) it doesn't feel as solid on recoil. Any suggestions for how to make that transition?

I'm interested in re-working my position because it tends to fall toward the left during a match, as would be expected.

NateG wrote:I've got a similar issue...

Bart, how would you go about getting the position to be solid under recoil once you move it to the right? I shoot mostly high power and have a very inline position. It feels really stable and controls recoil well, but when I try to get the gun a little to the right of my elbow, I can't get the same feel. Like the OP, my right hand can touch my left arm. When I've rolled farther to my right (shorter handstop and sling) it doesn't feel as solid on recoil. Any suggestions for how to make that transition?

I'm interested in re-working my position because it tends to fall toward the left during a match, as would be expected.

This seems to be exactly my problem. I am making the transition from Highpower to Small bore. My High power position was not angled at all. you could dram a line through my spine and it would connect with my target or one very close to mine.
matt

Some pictures of my position[/img]

Hmm,

your position is low, not really low, but still low. BartP is quite right, you could raise your position a little; a steeper forearm angle will work more efficiently with the sling. You could bring in the handstop (or butt) and shorten the sling, or maybe lie a little wider to the rifle.

I do see a couple of things in the photos that I'll comment on. Firstly I wonder if the gradual touching of right hand and left arm is due to your jacket. It looks like it's a little large, so the weight of the rifle on the sling is dragging the sleeve down. This effectively lenghtens the sling so your position loses tensions and slowly collapses.

The scond is the position of the sling on your arm. It looks to be mid tricep. Most shooters have the sling cuff above the muscle, as this reduces pressure; a few have the sling below the muscle. The sling retainer appears quite low on the sleeve, a leatherworker/saddler could move this up higher.

Thirdly, you look to have the rearsight offset to the right (but not the foresight) while holding with a hefty cant. Normally you can to bring the rifle nearer the eye, but you've moved the foresight further from your eye. This seems a little counter intuitive. Have you thought of redcuing the cant, and bringing the rearsight back over the boreline. You might need to bulk up the cheekpeice if you have prominent cheekbones.

I use offset sights, but mine a shifted leftwards so I can get my eye behind the rearsight without canting (well only a smidge).

good shooting

Tim S
Taunton UK

p.s almost forgot. Try tightening the shoulder straps on the jacket to smooth out the material under the buttplate.

thanks for the input. Actualy I will be changing stocks on this fairly soon. This is a Neal johnson stock and i will be changing to a Stopper stock. I will then be able to move the cheekpiece lateraly.
Matt

This one is an oldie but goodie; MEC mentions parts of it in Ways of the Rifle. It helped me out when I was coming up and learning how to shoot prone. You're going to need the following:

A full-length mirror-at least 18" wide by 36" high
about 10' of simple string
About a dozen large washers
a yard stick
a pair of cup hooks

1. Mount the mirror against the wall in the room where you're going to be practicing. The room where you took the pics is fine. Note: the mirror needs to be flush against the wall and floor.

2. Screw the cup hooks in on either side of the mirror, about 30" above the floor.

3. Tie strings around the washers. About 2' long: one string, one washer. Now, get the strings tied horizontally on the yard stick. Put the yard stick across the mirror, supported by the two cup hooks. You should have 5 or so washers on the yard stick. The washers should be dangling in front of the mirror.

About 5 to 6 feet away, assume your prone position. The washers are your focal point.

Using the mirror, practice aiming and dry firing at the washers. Every few minutes, turn the yard stick as to begin wrapping the string around as to raise them. Keep practicing your aim until you get the washers about 22" to 24" off the ground. Play around with your hold until you look even in the mirror. If you have cant rings and/or a spirit level for the front sight, this is the time to use them. Keep doing this over and over, adusting and adjusting, until you get it right. Using the remaining 5 or 6 washers, mark the spots where your elbow positions, the position of where your torso begins to leave the ground (on either side), and the position of your bipod (if you use one).

Now, get up. Take notice of the washers on the floor, leave the room, and don't come back for a minimum of 20 minutes. Come back, reassume the position. Practice the hold and procedure for about 20 minutes, then get up for 20 minutes. Keep doing this over and over for a couple hours.

By doing this over and over, you're practicing your entire prone procedure from, start to finish. By doing this in 20 minute intervals, you're able to push the limits of your short-term memory. Eventually, you'll have the new position committed to memory where you can do this without the washers as markers.

Practicing your positions in front of a mirror is an excellent way to see what's right and wrong on your own. It's my understanding that in Europe, a lot of shooting programs use mirrors with an etched grid to let newer shooters see what they look like in position. I've been using a full-length mirror for years and find it extremely useful.

I'm not sure if I understand how the drill you're describing works...


Here's my ASCII art diagram of how I'm reading it. Is this correct?

And you dry fire at the washers across the string, occasionally raising the washers. But what are you looking for in where you stop raising them? What determines the right height? Do you find a certain height for the washers, then leave it there and work on reacquiring that position? Or are you continually adjusting the washer heights? I think I'm pretty well confused.

Nate.

When you spread the geometry out slightly, this does NOT mean that you need to move your right elbow OUT necessarily. If the position is RAISED properly and the stock of the gun is just to the inside of the left elbow (as viewed from above), the right elbow can simply slide BACK. This will raise the right shoulder to some degree, but it will continue to keep the recoil going directly back into the shoulder. You will need to change your cheek weld to some degree as well. If you use a custom formed cheek piece, it will prob need to be remolded.

I wish I had pictures of my position. It's super-steady and super-comfortable - mostly because I spent a great deal of time building it from the ground up with regard to ONE THING - head position. The second focus was keeping the tension on the sling originating from the outside of the left arm. The next was recoil work.

Good luck. If there is anything else I can help you with let me know. Bp

It looks like you're inverting your left arm. The sling pulling from the outside only makes that worse. Inverting the arm causes outer rotation of your left shoulder which will pull everything to the left causing your right arm to touch your left elbow. This also causes npa to drift left and have wide left shots.

To fix this, try either pushing your left elbow out slightly away from the rifle and/or bringing your right elbow back and out which will help bring the hand stop in relation to your shoulders back thus causing your left arm to straighten up.

I'll ditto what Bart and others said about your left arm. Your left elbow looks as if you are trying to get it directly under or even to the right of the stock so your platform looks like the leaning tower. Your left elbow should be, imo, in line with your left shoulder and hip. Your forearms will then be forming something of a pyramid. Your current position is requiring muscular tension in your left trap to counter the leftward drift.
As for your neck, I'm guessing you are not letting the cheek piece support your head. Rimfires are very hold sensitive and variations in cheek pressure will result in wide shots. Get used to making vertical sight picture adjustments with your cheekpiece adjustment so you aren't lifting your head to center the front sight in your rear aperture. Moving from 50 yds/meters to 100 and back necessitates an adjustment of your cheekpiece up and down.

Your sling appears to be over the right side of your elbow. If this is correct, I recommend correcting by making sure the sling is exactly centered over the left elbow when you establish your prone position. You might have a coach or a shooting buddy stand over you and observe where the sling is positioned. The goal is to have the left arm form a triangel and have the sling tie the triangle togeather. For this to work properly, the sling must hold the rifle and it can only do this if the triangle is perfectly verticle. Good Shooting Bill Horton