TargetTalk

Went to the Columbus gunshow this morning to see if I could sell a Model 70 Winchester. First table in the door and I see a blue Series 70 Colt with a Bo-Mar rear sight and a tall front sight. Somebody had built a hardball gun for match shooting and the price was $750.

I checked slide to frame fit. Plenty tight. Pressing down on the barrel hood produced no movement. I could not turn the barrel bushing with my fingers, nor was there any movement of the barrel in the bushing. The barrel had a light stamp that read ".45 ACP" with what appears to be the word "KIT" under it. Very faint. The frontstrap and mainspring were both given a pebble type textured surface. Trigger pull seemed to be in the 4 pound range, if not a bit heavier than that.

So I traded for it. The dealer could not tell me who'd done the work.

It was such a nice day today I decided to have a shoot-off between my Mountain Competition Pistols M9 match Beretta and this new hardball Colt.



After two five shot groups from a rest I finally settled down, focused on the front sight and produced that group with five shots of American Eagle 230 grain FMJ.

Okay, accuracy-wise, the Colt could walk the walk. Reliability was another matter. More often than not, the gun would jam between the fourth and fifth shots, producting this strange phenomenon:



The fourth round doesn't clear, but the fifth round is halfway into the chamber. Not sure what could cause that. I was using a Wilson magazine. Probably a combination of extractor tension and ejector geometry, if I had to guess. Never seen a jam like this, but I'm confident a local smith can fix it.



Above is another good group the Colt turned in. I'm a little concerned about the flyer though. Aside from the jams, my only other complaint was the sharp serrations on the trigger. Also, the gunsmith drilled and tapped through the long steel trigger to install an over travel stop. For some reason, he did not stone the burr off it. Didn't notice it until I started firing.



The M9 answered right back with this 5 shot group.



And the group above is another fairly good one. The vertical stringing is my fault.

Accuracy-wise I'd say both guns are mechanically capable of excellent groups...it's just that the M9 seemed to produce them more often.

I did do some one-handed, standing practice. Shot recovery in timed and rapid type firing was noticeably better with the M9.

I'll keep the Colt as a back-up service pistol, after I get the faults corrected.

Nice find! About the M9... Whats with the yellow tape on the trigger guard? Almost every tricked out M9 Ive seen has some type of taping on it.. Whats that about?

That tape on the trigger guard signifies it has been inspected and approved at Camp Perry for the nationals.

Don't take this the wrong way... but... why bother with 50 ft. testing for ball guns? It either cuts it at 50 YARDS, or it doesn't!

Get good (pref. Colt) hardball mags for the Series 70. The Wilson one (w/ the pad) won't be allowed in leg matches anyway and could be the source of your problems.

I wouldn't do anything to the Colt until you get the right mags. I wouldn't do anything to the MCP M9 until pigs fly!

Anonymous wrote:Don't take this the wrong way... but... why bother with 50 ft. testing for ball guns? It either cuts it at 50 YARDS, or it doesn't!

I have to agree. By coincidence, I just discovered today finally getting some quality time outdoors playing around with some different loads that a load that was placing bullets between fly's cheeks at 50' indoors wasn't useful to hit the side of a barn at distance. I don't fully understand why, but 50' and 50 yds are two different animals and the rules of geometry don't strictly apply. Working up loads or testing indoors for equipment and loads to be used outdoors seems to be a waste of time.

Shot at 50' because 50' is the range I shoot at in my bullseye league every Wednesday night.

Also, I don't have 50 yard bullseye targets with which to sight in.

You really need to get take both those guns and test the loads at the 50 yard line. I agree with the other posters. You can learn nothing at the 50 foot line. Virtually all guns will shoot well at 50 feet. As my bullseye friends so often joke, you can throw rocks at the target out to 25 yards and be in the x ring. Something happens to many barrel /bullet combinations at about 30-35 yards. the twist rate if the barrel, the ballistics of the bullet and lock up of the barrel, and the fit of the bullet in the barrel will all affect the accuracy at the 50 yard line. Your shot pattern can start looking more like the end of a trumpet than a classic cone. The best you can hope for with an accurate gun is a cone. Sadly many gun ammo combinations that will hold the x ring at 50 feet will not even hold the seven ring at the 50 yard line. I would buy some 50 yard targets and give both guns a go with whatever ammo you are considering before you get an unpleasant surprise in your next LEG match. Isabel

The 50 Yard Black is exactly eight (8) inches in diameter.

Make a compass with a four (4) inch string and pencil. Draw the circle on stiff cardboard. Cut out the circle. Use the hole as a template to spray paint an eight (8) inch black circle on newspaper.

Staple it up at 50 Yards and see what accuracy you get.

Doesn't have to be complicated!

Citizen Carrier,

With all due respect, I would guess you are a fairly inexperienced competitor with extremely "off the charts good" equipment!

Trust me and others on this: Don't fiddle with either of your pistols. Don't make any permanent modifications yourself. Don't let your local Gunsmith do a "fix up" for you either.

Regarding the Colt, get the Colt mags and hopefully this will cure your problems. You have what looks like a wonderful Series 70 Colt. Don't let your local gunsmith make a mess of it. Ask the list for a good 1911 Bullseye gunsmith in your area if you need one.

The Mountain Competition Pistols M9 Beretta is in another league altogether. I don't know if you got it direct from Dr. Nick or not, but suffice it to say there are basically a total of three people in the world who can do what he does: Dr. Nick, Dave Sams, and Tony Kidd. You own the most prized 9mm Service Pistol in the competitive world.

You have a fantastic pair of Bullseye pistols. Take your time, learn them. Don't be in a hurry. Sign up for the Bullseye-L list if you haven't already (Digest Version is generally easier to keep track of):

http://lists.lava.net/mailman/listinfo/bullseye-l

I'm inexperienced with centerfire bullseye shooting, that is certain. I'm fairly decent with rimfire, as that is mainly what I've been shooting in leagues here in Columbus for a few years. Deployments to Iraq and Kuwait didn't help with my progression.

Of course, it is fairly easy to look good shooting a Pardini.

I did receive the M9 from Dr. Nick. He put it in my hands personally the day before the President's and NTI during the 2008 National Matches.

I have a good supply of Atlanta Arms match 9mm on hand, which I will use to zero at 25 and 50 yards a little later, and save the rest for Perry.

Still wondering where the ramson rest targets are. The only way to truly test your guns;. Don't forget to shoot 5 shots first to settle the gun in the rest, then go for group. try 3 different loads to find the best

You got a great deal on that Colt, Citizen Carrier. IIRC the military bought some "Kit" guns from Colt to have accurized for match shooting. I would bet a dollar to a doughnut that this is what you have. It was more than likely built by a military armorer. It'll probably shoot well. Finding match .45 ball that will shoot well is usually the biggest problem. If you reload, and have the time you can probably work up a load that will group well at 50 yards. Your malfunction problems might be related to the gun needing a break-in period if it is in new condition. If it isn't, I suspect that you hit the nail on the head, in that your extractor might need tuning, which is a simple trial and error procedure. Different magazines may help, but in my experience, a good gun will function with most any good magazine. You may want to replace the recoil spring with a new 18 lb. one. The spring may be as old as the gun, which I would guess was built 35 or more years ago. Keep the gun very wet with good oil. I like FP-10.

Colt sold the "kits" to more than just military. I've had two Clark built kit guns. Giles, Shockey, Clark all bought kits through Gil Hebard Guns back in the 50's and 60's. Since there was almost no aftermarket parts manufacturers back then like we have today, custom builders almost had to use Colt parts or make their own.

Good shooting with your piece of history.

RMinUT wrote:Colt sold the "kits" to more than just military. I've had two Clark built kit guns. Giles, Shockey, Clark all bought kits through Gil Hebard Guns back in the 50's and 60's. Since there was almost no aftermarket parts manufacturers back then like we have today, custom builders almost had to use Colt parts or make their own.

Good shooting with your piece of history.

I'm always learning. Thanks for the info RMinUT. If the gun was built by one of the top names or a military armorer, it looks like a very good deal to me. Citizen, you might look for some markings on the underside of the slide when you take it apart. This might give a clue to who made the gun.

Misny wrote:
I'm always learning. Thanks for the info RMinUT. If the gun was built by one of the top names or a military armorer, it looks like a very good deal to me. Citizen, you might look for some markings on the underside of the slide when you take it apart. This might give a clue to who made the gun.

My Clark 38 gun had his name on the inside of the slide along with a date stamp and ser.#. I believe it was 123-H 6/65. It was the only Clark I had seen with his name on the inside instead of on the side of the slide.
I've never heard of or seen a military armorer putting a name on a gun. it was gov't property afterall.

RMinUT wrote:

Misny wrote:
I'm always learning. Thanks for the info RMinUT. If the gun was built by one of the top names or a military armorer, it looks like a very good deal to me. Citizen, you might look for some markings on the underside of the slide when you take it apart. This might give a clue to who made the gun.

My Clark 38 gun had his name on the inside of the slide along with a date stamp and ser.#. I believe it was 123-H 6/65. It was the only Clark I had seen with his name on the inside instead of on the side of the slide.
I've never heard of or seen a military armorer putting a name on a gun. it was gov't property afterall.

I don't know when Clark started engraving his name on the side of the slide, but I have a hardball gun that was re-accurized by Clark. When I got it back, it was engraved on the inside bottom of the slide with "Clark" and the date.

IMHO there are two things that may be causing the stove pipe effect. One as mentioned above this post is the tension and shape of the hook on the extractor, but even more likely is something the Air Force gunsmiths learned using high speed photography. The ejected case was found to be bouncing off the slide and back into the ejection port. The fix was to cut a small half moon Relief out of the slide to change the trajectory of the ejected case. Many production colts and 1911 copies now have this modification. Go to a good gun store and examine the 1911s' they have in stock and I am sure you will find one on whitch this modification has been made. As an addition your pistol is an almost perfect copy of a hard ball gun that I have shot over 3'000 rounds through and it like yours is still in pristeen conditition. The discoloration on youy slide was caused when the gunsmith silver soldered your front sight into place on the slide.This was a commopn practice until about 1970. Good Shooting Bill Horton