TargetTalk

I'd like to make a run for Distinguished, but I don't have a proper ball gun. Am I best served with an M9, or a 1911? Thanks.

IMHO, the M9's are easier to shoot and easier to shoot well. the big HOWEVER, is that they are (a) expensive, and (b) relatively hard to come by.

For those reasons, I'd recommend a 1911 or 1911A1 or the commercial equivalent. They're easy to come by, reasonably priced, and easy to load for.

Govtmodel is exactly correct. There are a few gunsmiths out there who claim the exerptise to accurize an M9 and make it suitable for LEG matches. Very few of them are actually producing a reliable and accurate gun that will not cause you any headaches. David Sams guns are very good. Other people I know have had mixed results from some of the other smiths. If you are going to pay that kind of money for a gun you want it to work well all of the time. It can be very frustrating if it does not. A 1911 is older proven technology and people are still getting LEG points with them in many matches. Isabel

Mike,
I have shot both and found that I don't like the fit of the M9 for my hand nor do I like the long pull trigger set up. I went the route of buying a Springfield Armory Mil Spec and having it reworked by Roddy Toyota in Oregon. I am very pleased that I went that route. One less caliber to reload for, one less pistol to learn.
You might post a WTB message over on the Bullseye-L forum and find that a member has a good used one for sale.

ciscovt

I got distinguished with a Clark 1911 and since, shot EIC matches with a Kidd Beretta. I shoot about the same scores with the Beretta as with the 1911. I don't find the Beretta easier to shoot, but it is more accurate than the 1911. The Beretta is less punishing to these old bones. For a top shooter with great technique, the Beretta seems to have an advantage, probably for the accuracy advantage, previously mentioned. For someone who will shoot in the 270 range trying to get distinguished, it probably doesn't make any difference which gun you shoot.

An acquaintance in CT has one-

Richard Daniels
860-966-0639

I have no interest in this transaction. I do have three Al Dinan pistols and they are excellent shooters. Al was killed in an auto accident around 1979.

Les Baer Hardball via Champions Choice.

I am going to argue for the Beretta. You can shoot twice as much ammo for the same money. The cost of the ammo ultimately costs more than the gun if you shoot service pistol for the long haul.

Most shooters are bullseye shooters that shoot service pistol. I am a service pistol shooter that also shoots bullseye.

You can get a used Beretta and have it built by several builders for less than the price of a Baer hardball gun.

The load is simple. I can give you the load that all the top shooters and gunsmiths recommend.

NCST8-
What barrel & twist rate?

I give up... what's the recommended load?

Any practice loads using lead?

I have talked to Roddy about this and he would recommend if you go the 45 route to get a Taurus. He can take the stock model shooting good with less work than a Springfield. I would also stay this route so you can also shoot BE matches to practice shooting iron sights. Not sure how much time you spend shooting iron sights. I am the only person on the line who only shoots irons for everything where I am at. I also only have one 45 and use it for both BE and LEG matches. It helps that I do not own a scope except for the one attached to my box.

Roddy has also told me you can get a 9mm that will shoot good to get the points you need without spending close to the approx. $2k to get a great gun.

I think it comes down to what you want to do long run. Do you see yourself trying to win at Perry? If so you may want to get a 9mm and get a good one.

Anonymous wrote:NCST8-
What barrel & twist rate?

I give up... what's the recommended load?

Any practice loads using lead?

KKM match barrel with 1:32 twist.

115gr FMJ Bullet (Winchester, Zero, MT Gold, Sierra)
4.8-5.0gr VV N330 or N340
Starline cases
WSP, CCI 500
1.145"
.378-.379 crimp

I don't have any lead loads that I like a lot. The bullets I use are just a bit more than lead, so I don't shoot much lead anymore.

Thanks NCST8!
Can you estimate the gunsmith cost to have a Beretta transformed into a decent hardball gun by a gunsmith?

There are two levels of service with the Berettas. One level duplicates what the AMU and Marine Corps teams are holding. That has a match barrel, adjustable sights, bushing, steel rails, and custom trigger. The cost is roughly $1750.

The mid level has a match fitted barrel, adjustable sights, and a trigger that makes weight. The barrel lockup is tight enough at the chamber and locking block that it shoots well at 50. The aluminum frame is strong enough to hold accuracy for thousands of rounds.

One of the guys on the bullseye list had a 275 with his lesser expensive build in a recent leg match.

I'd like to offer my personal story as evidence to not needing a high dollar gun to get leg points. I built my own 1911, the first and only gun i've ever built, under a watchful eye but still i did all the filing and fitting. The only "high dollar" part was a Barsto barrel.
With good training and lots of dryfire I shot to the 280 level in 2.5 years. I legged out in 2001 during that time taking 42 points in 11 months. This was before the handload rule and I used factory ball. My two golds were with Match Federal which is especially hot.
I currently have a 92f that has the KKM barrel, trigger job and adjustable rear sight. Total of about $700. I routinely shoot 10 ring sized groups with it at 25. Two thirds of the NMC is at 25 yards and that is where most of the effort needs to focus at. I never broke 92 during slow fire during a leg match but hey I won a few points any way. If there was a shot in the white it was from bad technique. I placed top 20 in the P100 and didn't break 90 on the 50 yard line. Focus on the 25 yard stuff and let the 50 fall where it may, it won't be that bad.

Take Roddy's advice, he is distinguished and a gunsmith, he knows what a person needs in a pistol and he is saying you don't need a high dollar 92. To me a person saying they need a 2000 dollar Beretta to get leg points is like a 16 year old saying he needs a Ferrari to learn how to drive.

Get a Beretta done cheaply, buy an inexpensive air pistol (747) and use the leftover money to build ammo.


Regards,
Robert
Dryfire builds Character

Anonymous wrote:NCST8-
What barrel & twist rate?

I give up... what's the recommended load?

Any practice loads using lead?

I've used the exact FMJ load listed above and it works well. I just found that 3.2 grains of WST behind a 125 grain lead bullet work fine for 25 yard practice. have no idea how accurate it is but it will easily clean a timed fire target.

NCST8 wrote:There are two levels of service with the Berettas. One level duplicates what the AMU and Marine Corps teams are holding. That has a match barrel, adjustable sights, bushing, steel rails, and custom trigger. The cost is roughly $1750.

The mid level has a match fitted barrel, adjustable sights, and a trigger that makes weight. The barrel lockup is tight enough at the chamber and locking block that it shoots well at 50. The aluminum frame is strong enough to hold accuracy for thousands of rounds.

One of the guys on the bullseye list had a 275 with his lesser expensive build in a recent leg match.

Hello all;

Been awhile since my last post.

I have a 92Fs built by Dave Salyer.

I won a leg at the Desert Mid Winter last weekend shooting a 275-8X
I shot a 271 in the team match previously that weekend.

I have had it for about a year now, do not shoot it that much.
Bought 1000 rds from Atlanta Arms last year and still have 350 rds left.

I am just finally getting used to the gun and it paid off.

For the money, I believe it shoots better than I will ever be able to.

It is such a great feeling to win a leg.

Thanks Dave Salyer.

Mike,
are you any closer to deciding which route to take??

I have a Roddy Toyota hardball 45 built on a Les Baer base. Roddys test target with it using Nosler bullets is like 1" at 50 yds. I shot a hardball match with it to 285. A 291 was in a practice. Roddy can build guns.

Presently Roddy is working on my 92fs. Trigger job, bushed factory barrel, and custom LPA sight. (We are still regulating the front sight to that.) It seems so far to like a bit hotter factory ammo than the stated target loads from NSK and Sams. And it really likes lots of oil.

Jack,
I haven't loaded any rounds to Sams' specs, I heard his load data was peppy. I believe the AA ammo is around 1150fps, Sams' recommend load data is probably well over than that. If I remember correctly the issue ball is over 1200fps and felt much peppier than the AA rounds I had.

I find it interesting that Roddy is making your gun using a Beretta barrel. I have used a stock 92f with the exception of mild trigger work and cleaned a TF target with issue ball, so I know the factory barrel is good enough for the short line. I am curious to see if he ransoms the gun at 50 to get an accuracy test. My 92 has the LPA sight also, it's not as nice as a Bomar but it does give a decent sight picture.
Either pistol will get the DR badge, I have moved over to the 92 because I find it so much "easier" to shoot small groups at 25 with and the trigger is far superior to a 1911.

Regards,
Robert