TargetTalk

At Target Shooting Canada found this chart that looks of great help, hope it helps you too, they have a lot more there

www.targetshooting.ca/docs/Pistol_Shot_Analysis.pdf

Taken from The UIT Pistol Book by John Chandler and the United
States Army Marksmanship Training Unit Manual. Layout copyright
of Patrick Haynes and is available at www.TargetShooting.ca

Also of interest for reverse engineering of shots:
www.targetshooting.ca/docs/grp-analysis.pdf

Sorry shooters, this is nonsense. You don't need to analize your worst shots unless you are planning to repeat them. Spend this time analizing your properly executed shots and work to repeat these best performances. Don't think about poorly executed shots. Think about those shots that are executed properly, study them carefully, Pay close attention to the rythem of the shot, plan to shoot the next shot the same way you shoot your best shots, then shoot it that way. Excuse the redundency but that is how you should train yourself to shoot. One redundency [ TEN] after TEN] after anouther . Good Shooting Bill Horton

Hi Bill, I completely agree with you. That was my first reaction to seeing
the chart. My experience tells me that relying on the chart creates more
obstacles to better shooting. I learned this when I was coaching world class
distance runners.

Tony G

There are lots of these charts floating around. This one has a lot more verbiage attached than most, but it duplicates a lot of fairly useless stuff I've seen elsewhere.

I think they have their place (if done well, which this one isn't), but only for really beginning shooters. When you have students who are lucky to get all their shots on the paper. it can be useful to help them identify gross errors. As soon as they begin to get the occasional good shot, they can begin to focus on repeating that feat. Until then, they can waste a lot of ammo if they have no guidance as to what they are doing wrong. Some students are also easier to convince if they see it in print in addition to hearing it from their instructor. Note the use of the term "instructor", not "coach". By the time someone needs a "coach", they should be beyond the level where the chart is useful.

The important bit is not to use it to flog them, but to indicate the techniques they need to work on improving. If they have lots of shots at seven o'clock, you need to tell them to work on developing a smooth trigger squeeze, instead of chastising them to stop jerking the trigger.

I don't think Patrick posted this up on his website so that we can all study our errors. It is a chart that has been used previously to help identify errors and to move on from in solving those errors. We all tend to think we shoot well, have good trigger control etc and it is sometimes only by looking at something like this (since most people don't have a coach) that we identify something that needs improving.

Hopefully Patrick will add his own comments on this thread.

Rob.

Nobody is forced to use it, much less if it hinders your progress, that was not my intention.

As a new shooter, with no coaching whatsoever, I find this helpful. How can it hurt my shooting results, and the awareness it brings to all the important aspects that compose a good shot?

I have only participated in two competitions, and I have found that most people compete against each other fiercely with a smile, in the two competitions I entered I felt I was competing against myself instead, and enjoyed it because I improved my scores 15 points in air/free, but not to the point of having 50% of my shots in the bulls eye, so in my understanding I still have more to unlearn and correct than to learn and repeat consistently at this point in my shooting quest.

I certainly enjoy trying to repeat my successes, but I don't mind learning from my failures.

Bill, aka: 2650 Plus, has it right. Knowing what one did to shoot a ten is the hidden gold mine that needs to be discovered. Once discovered, it needs to be continually mined for the valuable stuff...leave the fool's gold.

I might add that we need to train to not react emotionally to any shots, either good or bad. Each shot should be acknowledged and the good shots analyzed so they can be duplicated. If we learn to expect good shots, they will come more often.

I am with Mr White. That "wheel of misfortune" in whatever form, is a good thing for the novice in that it helps understand the terminology and affects of mistakes. Yes mistakes. The experienced shooter seems to forget that learning the fundamentals is a growing experience. Experienced shooters need a point of view adjustment now and then.

I am also of the opinion that the faster method is to study and work with those traits that bring success instead of those that bring less. However, I must also acknowledge that error-correction has worked for many in the past. The error correction method takes a lot more time. If you have that time...

Having stated the above, let me again suggest that working with the traits that manifest your desires is the more direct route to your successes as measured by yourself. Only you can determine what success is.

Another item I would like to suggest is that there are no good or bad shots, until you judge them. They are just shots. Treat them as just representations of your actions, without placing labels on them and you can more easily continue along an emotionally consistent path.** If you must add emotion to your process, add praises for results you are happy with and let results that are contrary fade away. If you are calm throughout all your shooting, except when you stray, what are you telling your subconscious?

subconscious: "Wow, he got really excited about that 6. He must have liked that! I better help him with more." (smile)

** Learn what the results are for a particular set of actions, without labeling or becoming emotionally involved. Then refine those actions into a documented shot plan focusing on desires. Work with and study what brings desired results and modify your shot plan as you progress.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
Air Force Shooting Homepage
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things

I had one of those charts in my box. A NRA National Champion said they're don't work, I ripped it out then and there and haven't thought about one since.

Not many Champions the caliber of Bill Horton post here and I see why. When he speaks people don't really listen. I guess the fundamentals have changed since Bill competed??

Dryfiring will show you much more than any chart ever will.

As Lanny Bassham the Olympian said: I don't care how I shot a 9. I only care about how to 10's. The subconscious mind cannot simultaneously think about what not to do and what to do at the same time. Only think about what you need to do to shoot 10's. It's as simple as that. If a child is doing something wrong should you reinforce the behavior by saying don't do that or show the child what you want them to do instead???? Think about it.

Regards,
Robert

I maintain the opinion that the shooter whose shots hit the 5 ring more that the 8 ring has a different learning situation that the shooter who hits 8-9-10 rings regularly. Even the shooter who hits say 49% 9s and 49% 10s has a different situation

I am not saying the chart is good universally. Picture the new shooter with no coach. Many shots go to 7-8 oclock (righty) and he does not know why. Chart says that is the jerk area. Shooter asks, "what's a jerk"? Soon he recognizes jerked shots. Eventually he understands the underlying errors that can cascade to a jerked shot. The jerked shot is itself not the error. Jerks are the result of underlying errors, mental or physical. The elite shooter/coach forgets there is little knowledge base for some shooters. They been there done that and take it for granted. LTC Miller showed me the chart 40 years ago. Without it and his explanation I would have struggled longer getting to know that thumbed shots go there and jerked shots go somewhere too. Soon Coach was getting me to understand more and to start thinking at a higher level about "why" the gun reacts to what I do. So then I can do what works. Still working on that.

RMinUT wrote:Jack,
concentrating on the right techniques first and foremost.

Robert

What would those be?
I am a beginner so I am open to suggestions from all angles.

[

Hey guys, let´s be nice here. Maybe not everyone is familiar with who the different people here are, i newer heard of Bill Horton. Maybe Paoulo hasn´t either?

I believe that by posting an example people can better understand my level, and difficulties, so here it goes.

[...

2650 Plus wrote:Sorry shooters, this is nonsense. You don't need to analize your worst shots unless you are planning to repeat them.
Good Shooting Bill Horton

Hello.

Bill, respectfully, I strongly disagree. In fact, I think that your advice on this matter is to the detriment of most developing shooters. Often, you refer to your personal past experience. That's fine, but personal anecdotal experience isn't always transferable across athlete experience.

If you refer to any research or texts revolving around motor control, learning theory, performance analysis or development of sport expertise, you'll know that the cornerstone of improvement has been proven empirically to start with error detection and correction.

In fact, when studying novice strategies versus expert strategies, clear differences were identified. Practicing and improving upon what one already does well (the novice strategy) results in the arrested development of the athlete and eventual stagnation of growth. Conversely, the experts have been shown to focus on the identification and elimination of error-producing technique. Experts find their weaknesses and crush them. Novices ignore their problems and hope they go away.

This isn't the opinion of one person. This is the methodology used by experts and verified time and again through research. I suggest reading some texts by Richard A. Schmidt, K. Anders Ericsson, Joe Baker and Timothy D. Lee. They're all Ph.Ds and their work has been peer reviewed by other experts.

Now, with regards to knowing an error and obsessing over it, that was never stated nor implied. Knowledge is power. Once you identify an error and understand the path that got you there, you can modify your practices to eliminate the error through deliberate practice of quality, supportive (good) technique. (Good is not emotional nor evaluative, other than it implies that it supports your desired goal.)

I could go on, but I don't think that I can change many opinions here. Let me finish off with four concrete examples that I hope will demonstrate my point. These are all real and recent.

1. Athlete PB has been training, with her focus on developing hold. This was a strength but PB thought that it was holding back improvement. Through analysis with the SCATT, I showed PB that the hold was world class with low trace lengths. Unfortunately, PB's trigger release was problematic.

By focusing on strengths, PB was losing points by ignoring trigger. This strategy was self-limiting because it ignored deliveries which were destroying PB's overall performance. By adopting remedial strategies to improve trigger action, PB's scores improved, winning a significant national match thereafter.


2. While speaking with Athlete RM at Milan World Cup, RM told me how his performance was not meeting expectations. RM was extremely disappointed and frustrated, commenting often that he didn't know what else to do to get better.

I pulled out my observations of his match and showed where and how he was losing points. We discussed his training and then how we could improve his performance. Acknowledging that he was a solid shooter, we focused on areas for improvement (errors) and how to eliminate them. From being lost in his training, RM went home with the beginnings of a new training plan.


3. PPN was an excellent shot, with a hold and shot release (AP) that looked statuesque, even by international standards. He could shoot innumerable 10s and deep 9s. Unfortunately, his final match scores weren't matching his ability. I ran him through on the SCATT and discovered that on his off-center shots, his aim-breech gap was higher than normal.

Using this imformation, we started working on developing his feel for centershots and off-centershots with high aim-breech gaps. Soon PPN could feel the difference and developed a strategy to duplicate the good shots. Once he was physically and mentally dialed in, he was able to deliver a series of centreshots with low aim-breech gaps. Two days later, PPN reported that he had shot 299/300 during a livefire session at our local 10m range.


4. AF is a promising junior shooter. Her hold and release were smooth by the standards of her peers. Unfortunately, her groups were sporadic. After unsuccessfully trying to improve her release, I had her dryfire on the RIKA.

Analysis showed that her point of aim was consistent. AF was using a centre-hold strategy and she placed it inconsistently within the black. Switching to s sub-6 hold, she immediately improved her aiming consistency and her groups decreased in size. Scores jumped.


So, there are concrete examples where improvement took place because we first focused on identifying their technical weaknesses and then worked on eliminating them (error detection and correction.) This is the way people get better, as opposed to rising only so high and stagnating.

On a final note, the Wheel of Miisfortune or Shot Analysis Chart, is a tool. I use its method when someone thrusts a target under my nose and asks, "what happened?"

It works on a few assumptions. First, it assumes that you can produce a group and that flyers are minimal. Second, it assumes a consistent point of aim. The chart is only helpful in relation to average group and aim location.

When you use it, you don't start thinking "Don't jerk. Don't jerk." You go back to your training and focus on good trigger technique that eliminates problems. You become drill specific and break down your training to discrete chunks. You can work on eliminating your error because you identified it and where able to diagnose remedial training.

The chart also becomes ineffective when your technique becomes sufficiently advanced that gross flyers are eliminated. In the sense of AP, when your shooting 565-570, the chart offers nothing. Similarly, if you're shooting less than 500 with no discernible group, it has no value. It is for novice and intermediate shooters who have a grasp of the fundamentals. For higher functioning shooters, get a SCATT.

I should mention that in Air Rifle Shooting and Ways of the Rifle, principally written by Maik Eckhardt, Gaby Buhlmann and Heinz Reinkemeier, devote space to shot analysis and error identification. They understand that all shooters who desire to be their best need to look at their technique, diagnose problems and eliminate them.

Regards.
Patrick Haynes
Canadian Forces CISM Shooting Team, Pistol Coach