TargetTalk

Shooters, coaches!

Please read the attachment. I call you to comment mostly the proposals of new equipment restrictions.
I was shocked reading those irrational ideas of the committee members. If the ISSF accepts something like that, we all can throw away our jackets, trousers, boots...we 've just bought, worth thousands of Pounds or Euros.
I can't find out the interest which suppose to lead them to bring out such ideas. On a first glance it looks like some producers with good conections want to increase their income on this way, but I simply can't believe it.

My personal opinion is clear for a long time - we don't need any changes without reasonable cause. Any change should serve only to comercialisation and increasing the professionalism of shooting sport. So called 'experts' from the committees have many ideas but I really can't see development getting for example thinner trousers without padding on butt and knees and other proposals.

Best regards,

Rajmond Debevec

Just had a look through, the most significant is to ban shooting boots from rifle standing position! Are these people on the same planet as us? I'm sure the boot manufacturers will be pleased!
So you allow jackets and trousers that provide massive support and ban ankle boots? The reasoning they say is because its easy to do! crazy!
Is this a proposal or is it now cast in stone? It looks like its agreed. The date was to be in 2013, then it says to be moved to 2011, and then in another part it says in 2010! A most confusing document. So are they now banned?
Can some one who knows clarify this please?
Bestr regards
Robin

As just an average Joe who shoots as a hobby, I continue to be amazed at the regulations the ISSF puts forth. One would think that shooters would encase themselves in concrete but for these rules - I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

My own gear, every piece of it, hasn't been upgraded since college (now more than 20 years distant) because it still fits and I can't afford to replace it. It may or may not pass modern equipment control, and in truth I don't really care if it does or not. These rules aren't for me and my buddies, they are for the professional shooters who contend for Olympic medals and world championships. If we are forced to change our gear to comply with these new rules, we probably will just stop attending USAS tournaments and go completely to NRA matches. It will be just another step in driving away the casual shooter and making the sport inaccessible to the majority of civilians.

RobinC wrote:Just had a look through, the most significant is to ban shooting boots from rifle standing position!

Er, no, the most significant is to reduce the jacket and trouser thicknesses from 2.5mm to 2mm (so we all need replace our existing kit), followed by the boots, followed by the ban on all new materials.

But there are many more, including a new finals procedure proposal.

Rajmond,

I agree. At first glance, it does look awfully suspicious. The equipment manufacturers would rake in a huge amount of revenue. It's just hard to imagine a coordinated effort between them to jam up so many of their loyal purchasers. But...it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. When you stop to think about the sheer numbers, it's daunting.

I have heard and read a few rumblings (as I am sure you have as well over your long career) about the direction of the sport with regard to the materials and support issues. I picked up my guns again after 20 years and bought all new equipment including a custom suit and was pleased to find the new regulations allowed for such great equipment (and support! I am 43 - any support is GOOD support!)

With that said, perhaps a better move for the ISSF would be to simply stick with the regulations they currently have and not allow any FUTURE enhancements. We are still shooting under the same conditions as one another anyway. Why not just leave well-enough alone? Personally, if these regs are put into effect before this Spring and the World Cup Season, the manufacturers won't have enough time to supply the sport with the new products. It will take months to create the thousands of new suits necessary. Is there a date these rules are to put into effect should they become a reality?

And what can we do to stop them? They make specific reference to the "penguin parade" and it is obvious they want to shut down the appearance of people trussed up in concrete and rebar (leather and composites). Do they have a time frame? One year? Two years? The next Olympics? Again, what can us Olympic hopefuls do to dissuade their intentions?

Bp

there was an issue this year in cycling, my other sport, about equipment dimensions. a rule went into effect in the middle of the season that restricted certain items on the bikes, just in time for the mechanics to rush around swapping parts a few days before the tour de france. and you know who made the biggest noise? the manufacturers, and the elite athletes.

same thing in formula one, the drivers and teams are the ones trying to compromise so that some blockhead who doesn't know anything about the sport isn't making all the rules.

i'm just saying that i suspect you have a bigger voice in this than you think.

dan m

Hi Sparks
I'm totaly confused by this, the ISSF rules as on their site today are unchanged, in rule ammendments section there is nothing.
I read the Jacket and pants changes as moved from 2013 to 2011, and the main thickness stays the same on both but the padding is removed from the pants, so it would only require the padding being taken off the pants in 2011, (I think!)
The boots, they are proposing to change to the same as pistol, but only for standing, was going to be 2013 moved to 2011, BUT at the bottom in blue it says action on 1st Jan 2010, if they mean the rule, that's now! Banned! Or do they mean to action at a meeting on 1st Jan?
My wife has a jacket and boots being made as we speak, will the boots be illegal before she gets them?
Best regards
Robin

@ Robin,

The jacket will be illegal also, it will be too thick.

After a quick read of the rule changes I can not help thinking that much of this is the result of pressure exerted by manufacturers and the world media (television companys etc.). I remember that the change of blinders was inforced after the media treatened to stop showing shooting at one of the previous olympic games if the media could not show the faces and expressions of the shooters faces.
The changes may not be catastrofic for the elite worldclass shooters who receice sponsoring from the manufacturers.
Beside having no real purpose or function (we all are happy with the rules as they are) the changes will mean that millions of shooters around the world wil have to change their gear. Many of them will have saved (perhaps for years) to be able to buy their gear and wil not have the financial means to by the new gear. I can almost garentee that this will result in the decline of the olympic style shooting sport. Many shooters will quit and take up another sport. (in the Netherlands many shooters ceased participating in shooting matches after the change of rules 8 years or so ago).

Albert B
(The Netherlands)

We shoot at club level and the accasional open, but for instance in the UK the NSRA uses the ISSF rules. We have returned after a 20 year break, my wife, a rifle shooter, has got settled, we have studied the rules as they are written, checked the section for rule amendments and in good faith ordered new kit, and now discover there is a proposal in minutes, not even in general circulation, to change the rules at the end of the year! and with boots possibly immediately!
The diference in the thicknesses will make no difference to any support or performance, but just enough to make all kit illegal! Every shooter, club, county, national, et al, would need new kit to compete
I can not believe that any sensible body would consider such a proposal, I credit them with sensibility, so I supose that explains it.
Best regards
Robin

I don't believe in laying down and being walked over, the President of the ISSF is an ex shooter, let him know how much we disagree with rule changes, and that we will be the ones paying for it. I have.
O. Vasquez Ran email ovr.sport@issf-sport.org

Best regards
Robin

Hello
One more restricted rules, the last edited we have cut some part of our jacket, cut the sole of the shoes.
An other change, i dont understand the reason.
Is ou sport too easy?, or pershaps the manufacturers are too powerfull ??
Hope that is a joke .. for my money.
Buy new gear is not a little expense.
Wait and see.
Best regards
Gerhard

Rajmond,

Thanks for posting.

On another forum I notice you wrote that these are changes for 2013 and beyond. However, there is at least one item that may have already taken effect. Please see the bottom of page 5/37 concerning use of special shooting boots. It does seem that the pistol shooters still get to wear special shooting shoes but not rifle shooters except in the kneeling position.

This is foolishness. IMO

Marcus

Marcus wrote:Rajmond,

Thanks for posting.

On another forum I notice you wrote that these are changes for 2013 and beyond. However, there is at least one item that may have already taken effect. Please see the bottom of page 5/37 concerning use of special shooting boots. It does seem that the pistol shooters still get to wear special shooting shoes but not rifle shooters except in the kneeling position.

This is foolishness. IMO

Marcus

Rifle shooters would get to use the same shoes as pistol shooters (except in Kneeling when they can use boots).
Pistol shooters are already limited to "street style" trainers or shoes, although they buy ones made for specificaly for shooting with very flat soles, as stiff as are allowable. They cannot come past the ankle, the same as the proposals for rifle shooters when doing standing. What we would end up with in the 3P .22 event is rifle shooters wearing the flat, stiff-soled pistol trainers for standing, and then boots for kneeling. Two sets of footwear for one match!

Which is oddish when you consider 7.4.6.2.1:

Only one (1) shooting jacket, only one (1) pair of shooting trousers and only one (1) pair of shooting shoes may be approved by Equipment Control for each shooter for all rifle events in any ISSF supervised Competitions / Championships. If a shooter has more than one (1) item of rifle clothing (jacket, trousers and shooting shoes) which has been passed by Equipment Control then he must declare which item will be used for this championship.

Though the next clause might allow it (even though it seems a bit daft to be doing this!):

This does not prevent the shooter using ordinary trousers or normal athletic type training shoes in any event or position.

There's the question though of whether the "new" shoes they're talking about could be called "normal athletic type training shoes"...

Hemmers,

Please read that proposed rule again on page 5/37. 7.4.6.3 It says "...specially manufactured single purpose shooting shoes or boots are not permitted." This is perhaps in reference to the standing position but also refers to 7.4.6.3.

Sure sounds like special PISTOL shoes would be single purpose and not allowed. A Jury could conclude that based on the reading of the rules. Boots or special shoes meeting the requirements listed (currently) would only be allowed for kneeling.

Does this sound to you like it would be valid this year?

Marcus

One can already by the new ISSF compliant shoes at Intershoot. See http://www.intershoot.co.uk/acatalog/Footwear.html#a555 ;-)

Gerard

When was the last time someone shooting 50 m rifle prone scored 600 with 60 x ? Until that happens all the time there is no need to change any thing. I was going to buy a new Mannel jacket this year but will now have to wait until this rubbish is sorted out first, something which is pleasing MR Mannel no end I am sure.
Glen Turner.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this before, but there seems to be a need to end the "penguin walk" (really - read the document). Maybe that's why all these changes were needed?

If these are potential changes....it is very worrying. What has happened to the fun of competitive shooting. We are fast approaching to have more rules than shooters!!

I fail to see what is to be gained, apart from officialdom wanting to show some muscle. These rules are being changed by people who have probably not held or shot a rifle in decades....are they that out of touch with the competitors' needs...and the pursuit of excellence.

What is wrong with a skilled competitor being able to acheve the "possible" score...isn't that what we are all working towards. Why create obstacles by selectively eliminating parts of equipment. Better governance of the current rules, rather than comment on the "penguins especially in air rifle"

What's next....open sights only, no peep sights??

By now you have guessed that I am not in favour of the suggestions.
See your ISSF rep and voice your opinion.