TargetTalk

So I need to get myself a new shooting jacket (the trousers are fine, but the jacket itself needs to be retired to 'casual prone' use, its standing days are long over at this point).

Was looking at the new composite materials that a few companies are now using instead of the traditional canvas and leather, and it looks like boiling down to a choice between AHG/Kusterman/Sauer for the elastomer-on-cotton material; Mannel/Hitex/Mouche/Truttmann for the woven plastic mesh material; or Monard for the wierd-looking PVC-type material.

Hitex/Mannel seem to be quite popular in the UK, but that's because their agent is a tailor who measures them up, gets in the jackets and then brings them back in for a fitting and adjustment right there; but two trips to wolverhampton seems slightly excessive even from Ireland.

So has anyone been shooting with the new materials in standing-only jackets? What did you think of them if so?

Hello from France

Have you think about Markman in S Korea ?

http://www.marksman.co.kr/html_e/mn01/mn01_02.asp

The price is fine, but if you need to adjust, it's problem.

Gerhard

Anonymous wrote:Have you think about Markman in S Korea ?

Marksman House? With their track record with ISSF Equipment Control? No thanks!

lot of french shooters have these jackets (and trousers)
they equip lot of asia teams ?? are you sure they have problem with the rules ?
i dont understand, where have you read this ? i m intresting by.
Gerhard

gerhard wrote:lot of french shooters have these jackets (and trousers)
they equip lot of asia teams ?? are you sure they have problem with the rules ?
i dont understand, where have you read this ? i m intresting by.
Gerhard

It was passed on during the ISSF judges course I did a few years ago - Marksman were said to be taking the mickey out of the rules, with trousers so stiff they had to be heated with blowtorches to get through equipment control, and with the shooters having to be physically lifted and assisted into and out of their kit; with jackets whose rear hem sat on a lip in the seat of the trousers when in the standing position, giving extra support, and through a few other smaller issues. Basicly, ISSF personnel were going up and down the lines at Athens noting every one of those attempts to subvert the rules and the equipment control standards jumped a few notches afterwards and Marksman equipment was singled out as being one of the worst offenders.

OK it was some years ago.
I think that it was past and that they have turn in the right side .. i hope so.
I, the last French Championships in Volmorange July 2009 all the eqipments shooters go on the control easily.
In France we have heavy controls ISSF, it s sometimes hard for the old shooters, but it's the rules.
For the story, the last taylor of shooter equipments have stop her activity in 2004. He was a good specialist for the standing (10m) .
Now we must buy like you Thune Maenel AHG .... etc and the new material are most present on the range, but the price is high, 1200 € for a complet equipment Maenel
Excuse my bad english.
Good end of Week.

Hi Gerhard

Kurt Thune was in England this last August for the British 50-m championships at Bisley. I talked to him about the new 'synthetic' material for jackets and trousers. Kurt was reluctant to use this material because he thought it did not 'breath' very well compared to canvas and the shooter could over heat. His last words on the subject were, we shall have to wait and see.

JSB

Hi JSB Match
I think like them wait and see the life of this new material (half part of ribon and cotton i dont knoxw exactly)
Several french shooters that i know have these news wears and they dont speak about heat but the jackets look like "always new"..
And for the end how to clean them ?? i clean my jacket and trousers in canvas ( cotton) with hot steam, and it s extra, but dont put too much steam to conserve rigidity.

Gerhard French left hand shooter 10m 50m and 300m

Sparks
You have made my day!! My wife at "Tom Watson" age is returning to shooting air rifle shortly as a retirement pastime after a 25 year break once she gets the all clear from a double cataract op, she was GB ladies squad then in the days when soft flexible kit was the rule. I red your post to her and she was in hysterics with tears running down her cheeks!
Best regards
Robin

Sparks and Robin

That was so funny, but you know sparks it got even worse than that with the Russian team when it was still the UIT. They had jackets and trousers made so thick and heavy [name of manufacturer with held] that they could hardly walk to the firing point, so they got dressed at the firing point with their coach helping. They could not sit down once dressed.
I'm not sure of dates etc or whether this was going on in the latter days of the UIT or the early days of the ISSF, but it was this that led the newly formed ISSF to lay down more sensible clothing regulations.

JSB

Some German shooters have been bent all out of shape (pun intended) that after a rules amendment they may not anymore use their armoured suits (or, in German, and properly derogatorily: "Kasperlejäckchen") in the national discipline "100 metres ordnance rifle" (20 prone, 20 standing).

Serves them right. If they want an exoskeleton, let them shoot 100 metres smallbore standing (national discipline) or 300 metres 3-position. Ordnance rifle is ordnance rifle. Next thing to be introduced will hopefully be a minimum impulse for the ammunition.

We could just visualise the coach with a blow torch! and a lifting frame with a block and tackle (ISSF approved of course!) to lift the shooter into his trousers!! Brilliant!

I know I'm drifting off the thread a bit, BUT, there is a serious side here, surely its time to revise the rules and put a stop to this farce, pistol shooters are allowed no more than a soft jacket, no ankle boots, we wore rifle boots and tailored but soft leather jackets in the UIT days.
We have rules that limit the size of blinders and flaps on caps that give no unfair advantage, yet we allow stiffer and stiffer ( and vastly more expensive) rifle jackets and pants that stand up on thier own? Why not just go to benchrest? My view is this is silly, Has no one looked at how scores have soared since the 80's? I Know the rifles have moved on a lot but I would be intersted to see the top shooters in 80's soft leather coats, I suspect the scores would not be a lot different at the top but would plummet at the lower levels?
Best regards
Robin

There's definitely a line that we shouldn't go past in terms of how stiff the jackets are; but getting rid of them completely is a medical issue. Offset asymmetric loads and human spines don't mix - as the patch on my right leg from my knee to half-way up my thigh would tell you, if the nerves in it were still connected to my spinal cord.

Look, you drop the weight of the average ISSF rifle down from the 5kg or 8kg range, to the 1kg range of the average ISSF pistol, and then we can talk soft-shell jackets and the like for rifles.

Sparks
You are right with the medical issue. This is one reason why the ISSF have shelved the idea for removing shooting trousers in the standing position. It was concern over the youngsters being injured or having back problems later in life. This is why i think the current regulation jackets and trousers should be maintained. There are very strict measuring and thickness tests carried out at all ISSF shoots on the clothing.

We may see in the future a regulation demanding slightly thinner and more flexible clothing, but there has to be a line where your physical well being is not compromised.

JSB

Thanks guys
I was unaware that it was for medical reasons, so its nothing to do with getting support to improve scores? Hmmmm? I live and learn.
Best regards
Robin

Do the ISSF not put together a list of the jackets that they have approved?

I'm a newcomer in to the sport and have just got myself a cheap Buttstop on Ebay (stop laughing!!!) for club nights when i'm shooting prone without a sling. It'll do me for now to help stop my elbows slipping on the mats. I'm very interested on what I should be looking out for in the longer term though.

Ahem. The club nights "without a sling" make me smile far more than the innocuous buttstop. But to each of us her/his own preferences... ;-)

I just go with the flow on the sling issue. They're not allowed in the matches we shoot so thats how we practice. Never had any sling spport when i was shooting armed forces combat shooting matches as our slings were only there for safety, so i don't know what i'm missing yet.

JSBmatch wrote: This is one reason why the ISSF have shelved the idea for removing shooting trousers in the standing position.

Is that definitely the status of this issue? There was a big debate about this a few years ago & IIRC it was supposed to be reviewed after the 2008 Olympics. I presume that review never happened(?)

The ISSF move in mysterious ways and they can hardly be called a transparent orginisation. I believe the trouser issue is still on their list of to do, but its apararently been deferred pending. You try getting an answer out of them, its like getting blood out of a stone. I e mailed them on this issue about 18 Months ago, and it took them 3 weeks to reply saying we have no comment to make at this time.

The ISSF issue clothing specifications to all the manufacturers and they are then trusted to taylor to that spec. Most if not all of the reputable clothes makers will err on the side of safe, but the odd piece of clothing some times fails at equipment check in.

JSB