TargetTalk

I had a problem during a match a couple of weeks ago, and like every competitor with a problem, I decided it must not be me - it must be my ammo!! How else could I drop 13 shots on single bull? Also being a coaching type, I took it upon myself to disprove my theory. I had a box of SK Jagd Standard Plus (groans) and my problems seemed to go completely away after going to a different box of the same ammo. Same target, same time frame, same position, etc.

First I took another 50-round box and weighed every loaded round using a brand new Dillon beam scale. Interestingly, the ammo weight out into three distinct groups - high range (52.0 grains), mid range (51.5 grains), and low range (51 grains). I counted 34 rounds in the mid range, 10 in the low range, and 6 in the high range.

Then I took one sample round apart from each range and found that the bullet was always exactly 40 grains. The brass and unspent primer were always 10.8 grains. Both equaled 50.8 grains. Knowing this, that would mean I had 1.2 grains of powder in high range, 0.7 grains in the mid range, and 0.2 grains on the low range. Holy cow, no wonder I dropped 13 shots on one target!

I then took the mid-range ammo to the range last Saturday and shot half of it at a single 100 yard target using my scope. All shots were X-ring quality.

Anyone else crazy enough to weigh their ammo round-by-round prior to a match?

Weight is one way to sort rounds. You can also measure rim thickness, bullet concistency etc.
The SK Std Plus is perhaps not a "top of the line" ammo, so there you will probably find some differences from round to round. (The boxed Std Plus is the very same as the canned "SK Magazine").
However, I have done some pretty serious tests, weighing Eley Tenex and Lapua Midas, shooting several 10-shot groups with the action clamped at an indoor shootingrange. Sorry to say, but it gave me nothing special. I belive it is not a statistically reliable method to sort ammo by.
Just a fraction more lube on the bullet and you have a false parameter.
Of course, you migh be able to identify some really odd rounds and sort them out, but that might be one of 1000 if you are using premium ammo.

"Then I took one sample round apart from each range and found that the bullet was always exactly 40 grains. The brass and unspent primer were always 10.8 grains. Both equaled 50.8 grains. Knowing this, that would mean I had 1.2 grains of powder in high range, 0.7 grains in the mid range, and 0.2 grains on the low range. Holy cow, no wonder I dropped 13 shots on one target!"

Thanks for looking into this! I wonder if only taking one bullet from each group is good enough to draw a broad conclusion. Mostly this relates to your conclusion the the bullets and brass are "always" 40 grains and 10.8 grains respectively. Frankly, it would surprise me that the powder would vary as much as your conclusions represent...powder variable from 0.2-1.2 grains? Holy cow, a reloader can throw powder charges better than that! I suspect that the bullet and brass (primer charge too) vary somewhat. I don't mean to belittle your test, it's just that the conclusions are premature. Please take apart at least 3 of each bullet lot and then your conclusions will carry more weight. Thanks again for looking into this.
CC

I suggest that you get a box of some top of the line stuff, like Eley EPS, and do the same test. My bet is like guest66, that any "major" difference in the weight of the whole cartridge is probably the lube. I don't think the powder weight could vary as much as you surmise.

Some of our older members used to weight and measure everything to try and get 60 bullets that were the same.
Or you can buy top of the range bullets.

Your call.

I have to question the whole idea of weighing ammo to sort it. It is one of those topics that seems to come up now and then, but no conclusive answer is ever universially agreed.

Of course, it is your time and hobby, so go ahead.

What I can tell you, is back when I was active as a master class smallbore prone competitor back in 1980's to early 1990's, the club I shot with had 3 Olympians and many other top level shooters, and I never heard anyone talk about weighing ammo. You selected ammo (98% of it Tenex, the rest R50) by trying as many lots of ammo as you could, and when you found something good, you bought all you could afford. I would love to get my hands on some more 1987 vintage Eley Tenex lot number WJ1001!

Yes, the idea of weighing ammo, as well as bloop tubes, and many adjustments on rifles (as seen too much today) were well kinown back then. It is just the top shooters scoffed at those ideas.

Has ammo gotten that much worse since the 1990's?

Jeff

Lets see, Tenex is about Au$3100 for a case of 5000, so spend some time to standardize (weight, length, width) say Match that cost Au$1700 is a massive savingof Au$1400. or use a barrel tuner.
$1400, That's about 6 prize meetings around the state I can afford to go to.
(just fuel costs plus entry, most places I can sleep at the range)
Verses having top ammo and no money to compete.

My question would be that if you think the weight has nothing to do with the accuracy of the rounds, then how can you help explain the -13 I had on one bull when simply changing ammo resulted in -0 on the remaining three in the same relay? Do you think 2-3 grains of lubrication could exist?

The only thing I can centralize on is the powder load if the brass and bullet weights are all the same. We all know ammo fliers happen - I'm just trying to weed out the fliers before they get to my ammo tray.

SK standard plus isnt exactly the highest quality of ammuniton. With lower grades you will have to accept that you will get a higher proportion of "fliers".
By in large you get what you pay for. You could always try a higher grade that groups in your gun for competitions only and use your cheap stuff for training.

For all your costs incured at competiions it is cheaper to use good ammo. What I mean by this is if you pay your transport fees, entry fees, accomodation if required and you shoot bad because of you ammunition you have essentially wasted your money. Spend more on competition ammo and save yourself some expensive frustration.

I think there can be many reasons for why you could drop 13 points on one bull and go clean the next. (and I am assuming you are a mid to high level master class shooter). Yes, it could be ammo. But I think it is more likely to be just you, and also a mental issue. You were looking to find the magic answer to your problem. Everyone wants to be able to shoot the best Tenex grade ammo for the cost of CCI mini mag dime store stuff. For me to believe that for the same lot of ammo, going from one box to the next, that you could drop 13 points, and the next box go clean, is ridiculous. Remember, under ordinary circumstances, you would have just shot the next box or two in the match. Would you have still dropped 13 points additional over the course of the next box or two? Or at least have a radical change in your average over the next box or two? Did you have this radical change in performance in the boxes of ammo before you had this problem?

No, you just had a bad day, a bad target, and are looking in any direction except possibly yourself. Forget about it, and just keep shooting.

Trust me, I have done the same thing.

Sorry to be blunt, but this possibility is just as real as bad ammo.

Jeff

The USAMU has their ammo selection process down pat and i thought it might help in combination with everything you guys are saying. All good stuff.

The Unit goest to ELEY upwards of 3 times per year with a bunch of barrels and guns. They find the lots that shoot the best in a large number of their guns and buy the lots. They look for two things: 1) overall group sizes and flier capacity. If the lot tests well but there is an occassional flier, they avoid that lot.

Now, I have done extensive testing in this area. I was interested in seeing how consistent a chosen box of Unit ammo "weighed out" compared to a box of Tenex I knew to work well in my own gun. I found that, indeed, the Unit ammo had very slight differences in weight. Nothing to freak me out. My own box, however, had about 3 separate weights. A bunch in the middle, a few heavy, and a few more that were light.

I took my ammo to the range for 100 yd testing after weighing it in to the groups. The groups from the "middle" performed as expected over and over. However, although there was not a great deal of variation from the middle groups - once I shot a few of the heavier bullets they WERE more inconsistent but not in accuracy. They simply had a different deviation of impact. And the lighter ones performed similarly.

So...using previously testsed ammo that I know is harmonically tuned to my barrel, I was able to determine that, yes indeed, weight can be responsible for variation (and the weight was all in the powder by the way) but that if it's consistent and separated into solid groups, those groups should perform consistently. My choice is to shoot the most consistent weight in the matches and use the high and low versions for practice, fouling shots, etc. unless there is enough of any one weight to complete a whole match.

In a USA Shooting match at 50 meters, I shoot in the mid to hi 590s consistently. I cannot afford to lose points to ammo inconsistencies. I have to do everything I can to cover the bases. I need test groups to be under 14mm. So I weigh the bullets. In NRA matches where the ten rings easily catch any bullet that might be a 10th of a grain over, I don't worry about it as much. But keep in mind - if you are going to Perry to WIN - you are shooting against the UNIT. They have the best, most consistent ammo in the world adn gunsmiths that test and test and test. AT matches that important, I prefer not to take any chances. Although I may not weight ammo for local matches or regionals, I do weigh this stuff out for the big matches. It just feels better.

Again, opinions are like assholes... :) I hope this helped. I do truly believe that you can take this topic to the ends of the earth. It's all a matter of how meticulous and fanatical you are to win.

BartP

Bart, this is interesting stuff. You wrote:

"My own box, however, had about 3 separate weights. A bunch in the middle, a few heavy, and a few more that were light".

How big was the total weight span from the heaviest to the lightest?
And how many rounds did you get in the bunch in the middle?

I have also done some tests to find the "perfect" rounds from a selected batch. My problem is that if I sort by weight, bullet consistency and rim thickness together, I only get 5% that are perfect ones. Question is: Can I trust the other 95% for competition? Tricky.


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The weight distribution was fairly wide (50.8 - 51.3). I collected weights of 50.8 & 50.9 together, 51.0-51.2 together, and left 51.3+ for fouling shots.

And when you do decide to include rim thickness, you get screwed, because you don't end up with enough ammo to shoot a whole match! I feel your pain.

In my experience and after hashing all this out with the guys at Benning who DO the testing at Eley: they say that it's more about finding ammo that consistently shoots well in YOUR gun, testing at least 2-3 boxes to determine any "flier" issues, and putting it all to your shoulder for a final exam. Once you HAVE good ammo that you KNOW shoots well in your gun, then you can go ahead and weigh out the batches as you go for your own confidence.

Remember, the guys at Benning walk to their lockers and fire the ammo straight out of the brick or case they have registered to whichever gun they decide to use that day. They do NOT weight the ammo. The consistency of their testing tends to remove the issues we are discussing here. BUT since we do not all have the advantages they do, why not got he distance and give yourself some piece of mind. right?

Bart

BartP wrote:The weight distribution was fairly wide (50.8 - 51.3). I collected weights of 50.8 & 50.9 together, 51.0-51.2 together, and left 51.3+ for fouling shots.

Very interesting. Do you think there's any "danger" in grouping the weights together and shooting them all at once, i.e., a box of 50.8-51.3, another of 50.8-50.9, etc.? Would you run the risk of fliers if the ammo was the same weight and shooting to the same point of impact?

This would mean a lot of work and meticulous record keeping, but to your point, when tenths matter why wouldn't you do this?

JJ

Hey Jason.

I would ONLY shoot a certain weight group if you had enough to finish a complete target. I would NOT mix them - not ever. That would defeat the work you've done. I have tried to ascertain if the point of impact changes between weight changes. So far, the only change I have detected over the years is when there is a huge disparity between weights. For example, the 50.8/50.9 group didn't really show any difference to the next group up (51.0-51.1/2). With that said, I HAVE seen significant deviations, especially at 100 yds, between weights MORE than .5 grn. In MANY boxes of Eley Match I have found a few bullets that may be far in excess of the normal distribution weights. Ex. 51.4-51.7 - in a box that was 65% 51.0-51.2. THESE "heavier" bullets tend to be the unpredictable ones resulting in a wayward shot. That's why I use them for fouling rounds.

At the 50 meter matches (electronic/Benning), you can't loose points - simple as that. If there are a few rounds that are packing a "different" punch, why not look for them. You may find a few to get rid of.

I just received a case of Tenex from Champions Choice. It grouped very well at 100 yds when I tested it. I will now tune the ammo: first with my torque wrench, then with my tuner. All this testing and tuning seems to warrant one last step of making sure there are no freaky "grenades" in the bunch.

Bart

BartP wrote:I just received a case of Tenex from Champions Choice. It grouped very well at 100 yds when I tested it. I will now tune the ammo: first with my torque wrench, then with my tuner. All this testing and tuning seems to warrant one last step of making sure there are no freaky "grenades" in the bunch.

That makes sense. Do you feel there's additional value in testing at 100 yds? I only shoot ISSF 50m so I'm not sure that testing at the longer range would tell me anything -- or would it?

JJ

Well, I must have finally found an interesting topic for once!

First, Bart, we entirely agree with each other, glad to see some consistent test comparisons.

Second, yes, 100 yard testing is critical. And yes, charge differences, especially with .22, will be critical. I have been using Remington Target ammo for barrel warmers and found that at 100 yards, that ammo (which is a little hotter, you can actually hear the difference) will consistently shoot about 3/4" higher than Eley Black.

Then another issue is quality control. Eley states that their Black is the stuff that fails their Red quality assurance.

And to the fella that said I must have had a bad day, you're wrong. I had a GOOD day that match; once I identified the ammo problem, everything cleared up quickly. This weekend was a BAD match weekend, ha. The "No Excuses Metric 2400" had plenty of excuses, and my scores were far below my expectactions. However, I shot the match, and any match time is good time! I'll post my #1 excuse on separate thread.

Jason,

At some point between the time the bullet leaves the barrel and when it impacts the target at 100 yds, it's flight has been stabilized (or not). When a lot WORKS at 100 yds, then it is very likely "tuned" to your barrel. That tuning, in every instance I have tested thus far, will translate to your 50 meter distance and accuracy. I just ordered 12 lots to test. Two worked at 100 yds - on a little better than the other. when I put the better of the two performers to my shoulder at 50 yds, it rocked.

Many lots will seem like they perform at 50 meters. The biggest mistake is deciding on a purchase before MULTIPLE REPLICATIONS of good lot groups have been achieved. THAT is why I only by stuff that works at 100 yds. If it works THERE, it will hold true at 50.

Todd,
Brian just sent me the results from the no excuses match. If my health had been better, I would have liked to have shot that match. Ammo would have been the BIGGEST part of that match. I did manage to practice OUTSIDE this past weekend. Shot a 1185 irons. What the hell happened up there?! Teasing - but you can easily see why 100 yds is the real test, huh? :)

Bart

I wish I could say it was the Eley Black. If you see Erik's scores and mine, we were neck-n-neck the entire match, and it showed. Yet Soup and Edie did incredibly well.

One interesting difference - the prone targets were elevated about 8-10" because of the mounting arrangement for the frames. What I want to do is find some time and go "re-shoot" the match with drier weather and lower targets...and Eley Red!

Know what you mean about health; my endurance is still shot all to heck following the cardiac misdiagnosis.

Im not smart enough to add alot to this conversation but I will say this I started this match at 100 yards with Wolf Target, an ammunition I had never shot before. After sighting in and going for record my groups were fairly open at 100 yards which I attributed to no practice for a long time. After conversing with a couple shooters on the range I switched to an old lot of Eley Practice 100 which I have a very little bit left. The Eley shot remarkably better.

The Eley held better at 100. There was no question about it and I havent had a chance to measure the overall weight of the wolf. Hopefully I will this week but, Id be willing to bet there is a weight difference.

At 50 the wolf wasnt to bad, maybe a tad faster than I would like but the real test of the ammo was at 100.

I wish I had more practice 100. I wish I had several cases of it to be exact. I guess I will use the wolf at 50 feet and 50 meters and look at getting a case of black.


Erik