TargetTalk

I purchased a Gripmaster (medium) a week ago and have been using it daily since. The use has caused me problems, not physical (no RSI) just a mental debate on whether my 10 year grip on a pistol is adequate. My original instructor advised to hold my gun like I was giving a firm handshake and I have more or less followed the advice over the years. The gripmaster in isolating each finger tells me my pinkie finger hasn't been contributing to any of my handshakes for years.

What advice would you give to a shooter to optimally hold an air pistol grip (finger dominance, squeeze pressure, direction of squeeze, points of contact etc)?

I believe the grip must be tight enough so that the pistol does not move in the hand from the recoil of firing, and relaxed enough so that there is no interference with the movement of the trigger finger. It must also be uniform in tension from shot to shot ,day to day and forever after. It must allow perfect sight allignment when the pistol is ligned up with the shooting eye and the target hold area and comfortable enough so as to be sustained for the duration of the match. There may be more but that is all iI can think of right now. Good Shooting Bill Horton

tonymcg wrote:...The gripmaster in isolating each finger tells me my pinkie finger hasn't been contributing to any of my handshakes for years...

Many coaches (and I am one of them) will tell you that the little finger should not be contributing substantally to the gripping of the pistol: e.g. http://www.targetshooting.ca/train_grip.htm: the rearward pressure comes from the middle and ring fingers.
Spencer

Spencer wrote:

tonymcg wrote:...The gripmaster in isolating each finger tells me my pinkie finger hasn't been contributing to any of my handshakes for years...

Many coaches (and I am one of them) will tell you that the little finger should not be contributing substantally to the gripping of the pistol: e.g. http://www.targetshooting.ca/train_grip.htm: the rearward pressure comes from the middle and ring fingers.
Spencer

I agree that what Spencer advocates is the conventional wisdom, and I had been following this advice since I started shooting seriously. When I first read, several years ago, the advice by Anatoliy Piddubnyy to grip most firmly with the little finger, next most with the ring finger, and least with the middle finger, I thought that it must be a translation mistake, and disregarded it.

Earlier this year there was a posting which referred to Piddubnyy's advice (I can't find the posting with the search function), and this time I decided to give it a try. It's very difficult to change a longstanding habit, but I do believe that Piddubnyy's method works. I feel that it gives significantly better wrist stability, and much more freedom to the trigger finger, than one gets by using the middle finger as the primary gripper.

I would be most interested in hearing about anyone else's attempts to follow Piddubnyy's advice, and what their experiences have been.

FredB

FredB wrote:
I agree that what Spencer advocates is the conventional wisdom, and I had been following this advice since I started shooting seriously.

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Earlier this year there was a posting which referred to Piddubnyy's advice (I can't find the posting with the search function), and this time I decided to give it a try.

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I would be most interested in hearing about anyone else's attempts to follow Piddubnyy's advice, and what their experiences have been.

FredB

Tried exactly the same quite recently and decided to give this a chance:
I found out some time ago that I can apply a lotof pressure with my middel finger without trembling. But I disovered that this doesn't stabilize the pistol as much as you could wish. A little pressure from the pinky is quite efficient at preventing vertical muzzle movement.

But one important thing here: each finger has to have a stable, solid base to work against, or else trembling etc. may occur. Pressure against "loose air" has no purpose and doesn't improve stability. The "base" will normally have to be the inside of your palm, but many match grips have a flat surface on the left that prevents the bottom of the grip from sitting deeply inside your hand. "Combat" pistol grips are better in this respect. I found that this missing "base" could be "replaced" by adjusting the rear end of the bottom platform-rest on my grip snugly against my hand. So when i press the grip with my pinky it tilts the muzzle downwards until it is stopped by the platform. I'm going to shoot this way for a while and see how it works for me. I believe I've found improved stability and resistance against trigger finger disturbance of my hold without any ill effects.

BTW, it should be mentioned that I've got a stronger than average grip from many years of miscellaneous training, carpentry, tennis, archery, paddling etc. But I've learnt that you don't have to prove this by crushing peoples palms when shaking hands!

the advice by Anatoliy Piddubnyy to grip most firmly with the little finger, next most with the ring finger, and least with the middle finger,

Just to confirm - by little finger you mean the pinky?!?

http://www.pilkguns.com/anatoli2.shtml

"I prefer the reinforced grip, where the pinky finger is exerting greater force than the ring finger and the latter more than the middle finger. The thumb is pressing the grip only in the middle, with the tips of the fingers exerting no effort at all on the surface of the pistol."

What gun are you shooting? What discipline? Anatomical grip?I believe the answers depend on these things.

It probably doesn't matter what you do, as long as you do it consistently.

You can't prevent the gun moving under recoil. If it's a semi-auto, the bullet is long gone before the gun's frame moves appreciably so trying to fight the recoil is pointless, for the sake of accuracy. If it's a revolver or free pistol, as long as your grip is consistent, the gun should recoil the same from shot to shot. It's almost certainly easier to be consistent when gripping lightly, rather than trying to crush the grip.

If you are shooting rapidly, a firmer grip allows the gun back on target quicker (actually, this may be to a large extent an illusion), but a gun with a better recoil chracteristic is a better way.

Consistent control of the little finger(=pinkie in the US?) is difficult for most people, and inadvertent tightening of its grip is something we have all experienced. I guess that, unless you have trained specifically to use your smallest digit in an unusual way, it is best to get it out of the equation and not grip with it.

Coaches usually advocate a pathetic, light grip for air pistol and .22 standard pistol, with anatomical grips, of course.

In my hand, gripping with most force with little finger is a much firmer hold for AP. There is more delicate swivel when I grip with middle finger.

Gripping with little finger usually gain me a good 10 points and much less flyers.

I am well aware that some coaches believe that gripping with the bottom [little] finger causes low shots. I would say that the most probable cause is allowing the gripping tensions to change as the trigger finger moves.In any case, if I had six fingers ,I would grip with all six . Any thing less is giving an advantage to your competition. the contention that you can grip properly with just two fingers I also question, and that is why I use the six finger rule when discussing grip. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Shooting Kiwi wrote:
What gun are you shooting? What discipline? Anatomical grip?I believe the answers depend on these things.

Just to make it clear:
Matchguns MG1E slow fire AP, Morini grip.

And yes, my pinky = little finger.

When I use it, it pulls the muzzle down, and this suits me just fine.
I've adjusted the grip as low as it goes......
Discovered that I actually held my head low before I did this, so it improves my shooting posture as well :-)

But: I think it is important to adjust the palm shelf snug to make the grip stable and give the pinky some resistance to work against. It's important to avoid turning this into another variable that moves the gun around. If it's done right I feel it achieves the opposite: making everything more stable and secure.

When I worry about vertical muzzle movement it is not caused by recoil, but my occasionally less than perfect trigger work :-(
A firm grip reduces the consequences of such things.
And for those who feel that the 500 gram trigger is like moving bedrock:
Using some power to grip the pistol can make trigger finger work feel comparatively light and easy.......

Not being a doctor....
As I understand things, the nerves of the fingers are linked in pairs;
- trigger finger and middle finger
- ring finger and little finger

So a tight grip with your middle finger will in some way affect the control of the trigger finger. Maybe that is why the Russian said to grip tighter w the ring and little fingers.

I also try to grip w primary pressure front/back to minimize side/lateral pressure on the pistol. This reduces the 9-oclock and 3-oclock flyers.

For what it is worth, look at the palm of your hand. Now bend the ring finger towards the back of the palm. Where does it point? At the middle of the back of the palm. Now think of a good solid equilateral three point stand.

study the anatomy of the forearm, wrist and fingers.

I'm very familiar with the anatomy, but not sure what point your'e making, jackh.

The point I was (or, perhaps, should have been) trying to make previously is that to aim, one does not need a strong grip. In fact, because of less fatigue and tension, aiming and hold should be better the more relaxed one can be. If shooting semi-auto, the vast majority of the recoil-induced gun movement occurs after the bullet is down range, so doesn't affect accuracy significantly.

The gun tends to pivot somewhere between its centre of mass and the web between the thumb and fore-finger (=index finger): in other words, high up. This rotation can, of course, be reduced by gripping with the little finger, but what's the point? The inadvertent little finger flinching, tightening and other naughty things it can do at the point of trigger release and when your brain isn't watching can be real problems.

If you have a problem with getting back on target quickly enough for a rapid series, get a better pistol, and/or add muzzle mass. I'm assuming anatomical grips - this is the Olympic Pistol forum, after all.