TargetTalk

Just want to share with other pistol shooters the tremendous improvements I've recently made based on concepts discussed in the book above, which is actually intended for rifle.

I only read the standing position portion of the book, but realized the concepts were perfectly applicable to pistol. In particular, the importance of positioning and center of gravity. The book opened my mind to the concept that a text-book stance cannot exist, everyone's body is different, and certain body types require radical-looking differences in stance than others. But underneath it all, outward appearances, all stances are trying to accomplish the same thing. The book also got me thinking about how the body parts all work together, and how a change in one thing sets off a chain reaction in another.

So over the past few weeks I've been implementing those ideas and am yesterday just fell a couple points short of 560...as some of you may have noticed I've only been shooting AP a few months, only shooting pistol about a 1.5 years altogether.

I won't get into the specifics of what I have done to my shooting, because there is no reason it should work for you necessarily. I can just say generally that I tried to achieve the same *concepts* in my ap stance as the book suggests should be achieved in the standing rifle position. I am short and skinny, so I paid special attention to the pictures of female rifle shooters.

There is a lot more in the book aside from that, all of it has been helpful. If you are like me, and very analytical in your approach, then I strongly recommend the book. You don't really need a rifle to get value from it, but it does sort of help (I've been playing around with 10m rifle too) to feel the concepts in action.

I have considered the same thing. However, just because you are short and light don't assume that what would work for a woman would work for you. Women have radically different centers of gravity than men do. That is why women on average are better at sit ups and worse at pushups then men are. Men also have an upper body strength advantage with pushups. Women tend to have longer legs in relationship to the length of their torsos than men do. Men on the other hand have longer torsos and shorter legs in general than women of the same size. I am very long waisted for a woman and even though my husband and I are almost exactly the same size, my legs are a good two inches longer than his.
Rick Hawkins, the USAMU pistol coach did some research a few years back where he measured the stance stability of a bunch of different shooters. He found in general that a stance with your feet shoulder width apart provided the greatest stability. I don't know if his results differed in women or if he even had enough women in his sample to reach a conclusion. I will ask him when I see him at Canton or Perry. Isabel

I should have stated things more precisely: I paid special attention to the body types that most closely matched mine, they just happened to be women.

This study you mention is fine, but again, what I took from the book is to forget about what "usually" works. You have to use what works for your body. That does not mean you do random trial and error, at all. There are specific objectives you are trying to achieve for a purpose, with regards to center of gravity of the body, arm, body sway, twist, head and neck, so and and so on, etc. It is fine to say that shoulder width feet are good, but why? Why does it work for some body structures, and not others?

I was watching issf womens air pistol replay on the internet the other day, there was this 18 year old Indian girl that won the match, I don't remember her name. She shot with her chin on her shoulder. There is probably a very good reason for it, known to her but not me. It doesn't mean that everybody should copy her, but people with similar body structure might consider asking why she does it. I am not saying to try to be radical for no reason. But neither does it make sense to conform to some text book picture of stance if there is no underlying purpose in mind for the individual shooter.

That is why I don't want to get into posting what I took from the book that is helping me, specifically. I think every person will get something different, the main thing is that every person is trying to accomplish the same things but must position their own body differently in order to get there. To me that is the main theme of that section of the book (on standing position), not that there is a universal right or wrong stance but definitely measurably right or wrong effects of a stance that is not right for the individual shooter, which will eventually show up as instability in the rifle (or as I translate to pistol, the shooting arm).

So as to this concept of feet shoulder width apart being best, to me that study is not relevant. Rather, the question is how a particular foot width fits into the overall scheme of what my stance is meant to accomplish in terms of where my center of gravity will be both laterally and front/back, how that affects my hips, shoulder, head, etc. If it happens to be shoulder width than that is purely random. I also have the peculiarity from a sports injury that one of my legs is longer than the other (very slightly and invisible to the naked eye), as well as unrelated to the accident, slightly different feet sizes (quite common).

So I think all these things come into play, and there is no magic formula. Good starting points for sure, but one must be prepared to discard those starting points, and understand the reasons why. That said, I am sure for some people the textbook stances work perfectly and they are thinking it is crazy to deviate.

Yes, I've read the "ways" and also the MEC airrifle book.
I see they've also got an Airpistol book, English translation coming soon?

I also benefit from mixing ideas between disciplines. One of these things is dispensing with the equal weight distribution "rule" which is commonly accepted among pistol shooters.

I also try to establish a NPA modelled on the "shooting scaffold" that rifle shooters use. Of course this is impossible, but it gives a good basis for establishing a position where your body naurally "returns" to pointing the gun at the target.

But I think it is useful to actually try these things with a real air rifle and not just read about them before transferring the ideas to AP shooting.
Only trouble is that mixing rifle and pistol trigger work may be a bad idea.

luftskytter as guest wrote:Yes, I've read the "ways" and also the MEC airrifle book.
I see they've also got an Airpistol book, English translation coming soon?

Hi.

I have a copy of the German book (Olympisches Pistolen Schiessen), and have been going through the material slowly (I'm not remotely fluent in German). What I have found is that the diagrams are solid, and allow easier translation than the general text. The book covers just about all pistol disciplines, not just air.

Last I heard (12-18 months ago) was that the text was being translated, but to what stage they have been completed, I cannot say. I've emailed one of the coaches who was featured in the book, and have asked where it stands. Hopefully, I'll get a good response.

If you can get a copy in German, plus a good German/English dictionary, you'll do okay. But the knowledge won't come easy. ;-)

Patrick Haynes
Pistol Coach
Canadian CISM Shooting Team

Patrick Haynes wrote:

luftskytter as guest wrote:Yes, I've read the "ways" and also the MEC airrifle book.
I see they've also got an Airpistol book, English translation coming soon?

Hi.

I have a copy of the German book (Olympisches Pistolen Schiessen), and have been going through the material slowly (I'm not remotely fluent in German). What I have found is that the diagrams are solid, and allow easier translation than the general text. The book covers just about all pistol disciplines, not just air.

Last I heard (12-18 months ago) was that the text was being translated, but to what stage they have been completed, I cannot say. I've emailed one of the coaches who was featured in the book, and have asked where it stands. Hopefully, I'll get a good response.

If you can get a copy in German, plus a good German/English dictionary, you'll do okay. But the knowledge won't come easy. ;-)

Patrick Haynes
Pistol Coach
Canadian CISM Shooting Team

Patrick,
A couple of our UK pistol coaches are / were midway through translatting this. Last time I saw the work in process was a couple of years ago. I'll enquire as to where it's at, as it sure would be well received.

Rob.

This book is excellent, as many will have seen; the photographs and diagrams superb.

A staff change has taken place and literally hot off the press, I am now translating it with a pistol coach who is German (and has excellent English). We both have technical backgrounds so the process should be relatively painless!

Many people who may read the book have English as an additional language. As the original test is in “high German”, we need to make sure that it reads well in clear English.

From the ISSF academy courses that are run in English, it was obvious the great efforts many participants from around the world made to take these courses and participate in discussions. At the same time, the demand for this translation of this book was also made clear!

I can't find a German copy anywhere in the US. Is there a goal for publication of the German version?

Anybody willing to join in on a group buy for copies of the German version, saving on shipping?

Hi, Guys. I have a copy of WOTR and their Airgun book. I also would be interested in a Pistol book.

Joe

Any updates?