TargetTalk

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6870916/The-V ... l-Shooting

In page 8 of this article, it mentioned "reinforced wrist grip".

Pinky finger grip tighter than ring finger, ring finger tighter than middle finger.

This is opposite of most pistol coaching article recommendation which entail Middle > ring > pinky.

So which method do you use? Middle>ring>pinky or Pinky>ring>middle "reinforced grip" as recommended by this good coach ?

For me the "reinforced grip" seem to lock my wrist more solidly during trigger pulling.

Hi Sea, I too use the "reinforced grip"; but only since I read that same
article that you refer to. Is it helping ?...We'll see, We'll see...

Tony G

paw080 wrote:Hi Sea, I too use the "reinforced grip"; but only since I read that same
article that you refer to. Is it helping ?...We'll see, We'll see...

Tony G

I've been doing that, too. I've tested it and have seen an improvement mostly because of an improved trigger squeeze using that grip tension.
Ben

I see on my hand that the ring finger pulls square into the center of the back of my palm. Also I believe the ring finger is anatomically more separated from the trigger finger than is the middle finger. The ring finger seems more connected to the wrist. I believe there is much merit in the mentioned article.

This only concerns AP (no recoil):
If I feel "the need for gripping", I mainly use my middle finger and meet the pressure with the base of my thumb. My only reason for this is because I've found that in this way I can apply quite a bit of pressure without tremor. This may be due to longterm building of strength in this finger thru many years of archery. Adding pressure with my ring finger and especially the little finger, causes more vibration. It's as simple as that, no theory, no book.

Purpose of grip: to reduce the influence of "trigger work" so the gun doesn't move. Should hardly be necessary because my MG1E has a good trigger, but there are also things moving inside the gun at shot release....
I know the little finger has better leverage in relation to muzzle flip.
There's also a possible issue with consistency when "disturbing" the action of the gun with too much muscle control, so I don't want to overdo it when I feel comfortable with my shooting (producing "surpise" shots within a controlled and short time window coinciding with a steady sight picture).
If things are not going very well, a solid grip may add some "safety"....

I guess that in general I have more grip strength than most people, and good arm strength and stamina. But I try to go for a relaxed technique.

I'm gonna read the article carefully, and consider all points made, but in the end it will be a matter of making things work, and adjust the theories so that they match reality!

There was a period time in my shooting when I never allowed the pinky to touch the grip let alone rest on the grip. My thumb became much more important for me, obviously. The experiment lasted for a few years and did give me a reasonable increase in AP & FP scores. In my thinking at the time the pinky was causing me more problems in my squeeze--I don't know why anymore. This experiment has been over for a couple of years now and it has often come into my mind that I may re-institute the process. I cannot give anymore of an intelligent answer without going back through my diary and re-reading my copious notes on the process. May make for some interesting reading during the "off" season. I remember feeling that because the thumb and remaining fingers were doing all the gripping left the trigger finger totally free to do it's most important job---tickling the trigger. There had been a feeling that came out of reading YurY'ev that one could fool the trigger finger muscles to relax and move the trigger finger to send the round. "Doc"

I will Preface this with the notion that I am only recounting personel experience and in no way making a reccomendation for other shooters. I attempt to apply strong pressure with all fingers and if I had six of them I would be gripping with all six. I then relax only the trigger finger to make it independent of all gripping tensions.I try to maintain a consistant pressure with the gripping fingers as the trigger finger begins its movement straight to the rear until after the pistol fires. Please keep in mind that I use the same technique with all disciplines. This has been rationalized as uniformatey for all pistols because much of my shooting was with the US service pistol [ The Colt 45 ] And that is one pistol that always requires a very strong grip. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Can't answer this unless we know what you're shooting...

Air pistol.

What major difference does it make regarding which discipline?

The key desired outcome is a grip (position and force) that allows you to manipulate hte trigger perfectly (Bill gives an adequate description of this as "straight to the rear" but it would be more accurate to say "in whatever direction that does not disturb perfedct sight alignment").

So, as to gripping force,we need to maintain a consistent grip force that "Dominates" trigger forces; ie the grip has to be forceful enough so that force imbalances during trigger operation are negligable (side note: not as big of an issue with constant force profile triggers; more of an issue with the sharp dropoff force profile triggers).

Light trigger force: less force required to guarantee above
Heavy trigger force: more force requird to guarantee above

Therefore, the answer would be slightly (if not somewhat) different for different types of pistols . . .

Steve

[generally speaking, shooters who utilize M1911 service pistol gripping force don't have to worry about it. "Too Heavy" is nowhere near as much an issue as "Too Light." That's one of the reasons why FP shooters like Demarest never really had to worry aobut "grip" as much as others. He squeezed the sap out of his grips. Case closed.]

Steve Swartz as guest wrote:The key desired outcome is a grip (position and force) that allows you to manipulate hte trigger perfectly (Bill gives an adequate description of this as "straight to the rear" but it would be more accurate to say "in whatever direction that does not disturb perfedct sight alignment").

So, as to gripping force,we need to maintain a consistent grip force that "Dominates" trigger forces; ie the grip has to be forceful enough so that force imbalances during trigger operation are negligable (side note: not as big of an issue with constant force profile triggers; more of an issue with the sharp dropoff force profile triggers).

Light trigger force: less force required to guarantee above
Heavy trigger force: more force requird to guarantee above

Therefore, the answer would be slightly (if not somewhat) different for different types of pistols . . .

Steve

[generally speaking, shooters who utilize M1911 service pistol gripping force don't have to worry about it. "Too Heavy" is nowhere near as much an issue as "Too Light." That's one of the reasons why FP shooters like Demarest never really had to worry aobut "grip" as much as others. He squeezed the sap out of his grips. Case closed.]

Steve, I've also found that slow fire is more foregiving of grip force than rapid fire for exactly the reasons you state. With rapid, firm grip is the only way I can do it and exactly what you describe is what happens to me: my fingers gripping lock the wrist and prevent the one finger's movement from tightening and thus moving any of the others (they're already tight so tend not to get tighter). If the grip is not tight, the results prove that does not work. With slow fire, I've allowed my trigger finger to have more control and steer straight back. Maybe just lazy or a way to help not getting too tired? :)

Getting back to the article, what I've found so far anyway is that a focus on the small finger does seem to help with recoil but also tires very quickly, thus giving less real control. What seems to work best lately, for me at least, is a "natural" grip where the pistol is held very firmly (white knuckles) but also feels very comfortable in the hand -- the force of the fingers get the pistol to feel as if it's sort of sinking into the hand in a very comfortable grip with the force of each finger balanced as the hand "wants" to.

I'd propose (this is more of a question, really) that a conscious focus on grip with a particular finger can help deliver a more consistent grip when first learning (as in learning a consistent grip), but will also tire the muscles controlling that finger ultimately leading to less than the ideal or highest potential an individual has for consistency over the course of many strings. Thus, a more natural balanced grip when properly trained is inherently more consistent. (?)

Read the article thoroughly since my last posting:
I think I'll try this out.
Seems there are two factors in my avoidance of using the pinky.

I'll have to meet the pressure from the pinky with the lower part of my palm;
actually this has made me aware of the idea that every finger should work against a separately defined area of the hand. Seems there's a tendency to only use the base of the thumb.

Partly due to the above, using the pinky tends to lower the muzzle of the gun. I've felt uncomfortable having to adjust for this. It should be noted here that i use a Morini grip adjusted to the max. and feel the need for more! For someone used to shooting, say a 1911 this is not an issue.

I'll have to play around with these things, maybe it's as simple as adjusting my head position or something. But I think it*s worth while to give this idea a chance.

BTW: the rest of this article is quite good and useful.

Been busy: just had to try it out.

On my match pistol I found it hard to plant the grip against the lower area of my palm, until I realised I could get the needed pressure by raising the palm support platform. Maybe I've missed something here? Tightening the whole setup so my hand gets sqeezed solidly against the platform when I apply pressure with my pinky. This works just fine, and yes it's uncomfortable if not exactly painful. But it works, and actually gives rock solid support for the gun. It makes my hand go slightly numb, and hard squeezing with the pinky causes fatigue in "new" muscles.

So I shot a bit in my 7 metre basement range, and the results are encouraginng. This feels stable and secure, and the results are similar to my modest average. No sensation, but solid normal results with a new and unfamiliar technique.

What about the long run?
After about 20 shots, the tissues of my hand got compressed to the extent that I felt diminishing pressure- I had to take a short rest and flex my hand to make it swell back to normal and reestablish the squeeze! I don't feel that this is really extreme, and maybe it is the way to go to increase my long term results. Just maybe that's how the others have been doing it all along without me realising?

Anyway, I fired more than 60 shots without getting exhausted, although I could feel the effects of the excercise for a few minutes afterwards......
And the quality of the shooting didn't seem to deteriorate during this excercise.

This is a possible eyeopener regarding a very skilled shooter friend who seems to feel utterly lost without a tight platform. To me it feels a little bit like cheating, almost a sort of "support", but it's perfectly legal.....

Funjny how we all keep doing our thing without really understanding the details of eachother's technique. Nice to have a forum where we can discuss such things!