TargetTalk

In a nutshell

I got to 560 about 6 months ago.
then I decided to change from 6 o'clock to sub 6 aim point
No improvement, no increase in pb (equalled once, but not bettered)
Get frustrated
Try going back to 6 o'clock as an experiment
Shoot consecutive 98/100s

????

You certainly do not seem to have any problems with the method you used previously. I use the adage "if it ain't broke don't fix it...."---if you are having problems ( I should have such problems as too many 9's & 10's) then you look to find the gremlins. Leave it alone, don't change---the problems will find you soon enough---unless , of course, you are bored with success???? "Doc"

If I am averageing 93, and I can ram it up several points instantly - is there any reason not to, despite the theoretical benefits (which I buy into, btw) of using sub6? I have been floundering around in the 550s going nowhere for a while...

advice #1: take a deep breath, let it out, enjoy the shooting and stop worry about the score all the time.
advice #2: forget about the score! How did that shot feel? You should be able to feel a center shot.

Shooting is a sport of patience and determination. Frustration will only make you perform worse.

Now, to improve, instead of always worry about score, try to focus on improving your technique. Improve your technique and your group size improves. When that happens, the scores will come, but it comes slowly!

There are benefits and issues to both using a 6 o'clock hold, and a sub-6 hold. Whatever you use, just be consistent with it. Switching back and forth may be beneficial for a while as it forces you to refocus. But eventually I think most of us settle on one or the other and just learn to focus on the front sight without the need to make such large changes as switching point of aim.

-trinity

#1 - i dont really worry about the score, other than at the end
#2 - i can - and taking a 6 hold made it soooooo easy...

I'm wondering if the issues with sight placement have made me work that much harder on my hold / trigger technique, and coming back to an 'easy' sight picture has cashed it in. What do you think?

I am very tempted to give up the sub 6 as an interesting, but ultimately unsuccessful, 6 month experiment. I think its long enough to know it hasnt helped. Verbalising always helps clarify these things in your own head, so feel free to ignore!

I was curious how the move to deep sub-six was going for you. I personally don't believe that one hold is better or worse than another. Someone that can shoot a 580 with a sub-six is quite capable of shooting a 580 with a deep sub-six.

Here's where I believe there MIGHT be some benefit from change for _some_ people; If the psyche needs to believe that something they changed is 'better' than what they used to do, the mind can be convinced that it really IS 'better' and thus, better results. But in the end, the ability to shoot better the 'old' way was always there. There was simply a benefit from the mental push.

Oz

It might be the case that I dont have the mental capacity to force my brain to beleive the sub 6 is as good or better, whilst concentrating on hold, trigger, alignment, etc... i find it exceptionally difficult to get the right amount of focus on the overall sight picture. I dont want too much, because it takes away from teh sights (bad) but need some or I wander side to side (poor) and it seems to flip flop from all to none and back. 6 oclock, it seems natural...

Have you tried center hold ? As I see the problem, center hold has advantages over every where else you might consider. The eye can naturally find the center of the bull allowing the shooter to identify the exact center of the area of hold every time on every shot. Should the target turn black it provides the strongest possible signal that eye focus is not on the front sight. The bullet strikes the target at the point of aim, and cant problems are minimized. Cant seems to become a greater problem with sub six. And for over thirty five years the American three gun record Has stood at 2680 out of 2700 shot with center hold. Almost every other shooting discipline is fired using center hold,and it seems to work for every thing else including hunting. Good Shooting Bill Horton

There have been some interesting comments on the TOZ "U" shaped rear sight. Do you feel this compliments center hold? Are there any other pistols Air, Free, Standard that incorporate the "U" shaped rear sight?


Susan

I did what you did exactlly . Then I stuck with a six oclock hold. I dont know how often you practice or can practice.If you can turn it up a notch, throw in an extra short practice as often as possible ! And remember what you just shot ! You did it once you can do it again and again ! ONLY SHOOT THE TENS, Dont pull the trigger if its not a ten, IF ITS NOT A TEN RIGHT AWAY PUT THE GUN DOWN! It will happen almost over night your score will jump 10 ,15 points or more, YOU ALREADY PROVEN YOU CAN DO IT!.. Just dont get too good that gold medal in London has my name on it ! And its not Bob hes my baker.

Bobs my baker wrote:I did what you did exactlly . Then I stuck with a six oclock hold. I dont know how often you practice or can practice.If you can turn it up a notch, throw in an extra short practice as often as possible ! And remember what you just shot ! You did it once you can do it again and again ! ONLY SHOOT THE TENS, Dont pull the trigger if its not a ten, IF ITS NOT A TEN RIGHT AWAY PUT THE GUN DOWN! It will happen almost over night your score will jump 10 ,15 points or more, YOU ALREADY PROVEN YOU CAN DO IT!.. Just dont get too good that gold medal in London has my name on it ! And its not Bob hes my baker.

NotBob, I may have misread you, but it seems you are talking about "snatching a shot" which, from all I've read, is NOT what you want to do.

The sight allignment issue seems to require the eye focus to be located at the top of the front sight in order to control vertical deviations. After all, you have to be consistant in your judgement as to properly alligned sights. I would also like to comment on the post that declared make the gun fire when every thing about sight allignment is perfect. I believe the shooter must be totally focused on the issue of perfecting sight allignment , while the trigger finger applies steadily increasing pressure to the trigger. This results in the sensation that the pistol fires when ever it wants to and the shooter should not give a damn when that is so long as mental concentration and eye focus are totally involved in "PERFECTING" sight allignment. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Thats a little faster than I meant ! I find that if a ten is going to appear it appears rather quickly. If you dont take the shot it might and usually does appear again. But now your wobble is about to increase. Take that shot if and only if indicators dont start going off in your head. If you dont take the shot your indicators should be going nuts (sometimes I will try to still get the shot off , but have found that the chance of getting a 10 has greatly deminished ). In finals Bill Demerest would sometimes get his shot off before the others had even raised their guns. 2 to 3 seconds what do you guys think is that to quick ? (varies by person )
The more I put my gun down the higher my score got, the higher my score got the less put my gun down ! Sounds strange ! well let me explain, I never put my gun down at first .Then I started to listen too and note my indicators (causeing me to put my gun down more often). My scores went up! I was taking good shots when they appeared, I quit waiting for the second and third try .Thus I quit putting the gun down so much and my scores still went up even more.

At my last match I actually stopped the shooter next to me and told him he was shooting way to fast ( he was a newbie) I also told him he didnt have to take every shot. The second half of his match was much better than the first.
Maybe this all varies with your level of experience and the steadyness of your hold. The Russians seem to hold it up forever,but I feel they can do that because of their experience. Just take what I say with a grain of salt and maybe we can help each other become well seasoned shooters. (yes that was a joke) Not Bob. P.S. you will learn more from 2650plus than you will ever learn from me.

I do not shoot like Hortons last post ! At times I have shot over 20 tens in a row. Each one was shot when I was holding a perfect 10. I know most on this site do not agree with that,but thats the way I shot. Like shooting 6oclock, I feel like im not guessing like I do when shooting sub 6. I also feel like im not guessing when I am shooting only when I have perfect sight alinement ,I dont want the gun to go off on its own or even feel like it is. ( when it does go off on its own it is usually a 10 ) I think MR. Horton has something there. (I just dont do it that way). All this thinking is giving me a headache ! Bob came by think I will have a roll.

Bobs my baker wrote: Like shooting 6oclock, I feel like im not guessing like I do when shooting sub 6.

thats my feeling too. I've been trying to overcome that and I just cant do it - I can concentrate on the alignment and the squeeze, it goes off perfectly without a twitch, not 'conciously' - and could be anywhere. I can call it pretty well afterwards, but unlike most people here, most of the time (60%) my perfectly executed release is not a 10. Its becasue its not pointing in the right place, and I cant make it happen. Too many years of rifle shooting at a formative age, perhaps..

Well I wish I could follow my own advice but here goes . . .

Take the shot when you see what you need to see. Sights on target and settled. If that happens immediately as you raise the gun, take the shot -- if it's already just right, it's not going to get better by magic. If it takes several more seconds this time around, wait for it. If it's just not going to happen this time around, put the gun down and do whatever it is you do to get back in the zone for the next try.

By "take the shot," that means squeeze it off using proper trigger control which allows the subconscious mental processing between eye and body. I fall into the camp that is firmly convinced there is no way to "snatch" a good shot other than by sheer luck. I'm not sure if a truely "surprise" break is necessary as long as what is actually done is done with what amounts to a high degree of focus on what is happening. I'm not sure if this is coming across but what I'm trying to say is don't get lazy whether the shot breaks by surprise or not. Keep the visual focus on the front sight and task focus on maintaining that alignment.

As far as which hold -- I used to use center hold and switched to six-o'clock early on so I can see the sights better. Sub-six doesn't work for me -- I think that actually takes more skill or maybe some level of coordination I don't yet have. It must be an individual thing.

In a nutshell -- Do whatever works. :)

Philadelphia

indeed... my question is about sight picture being used and I think i'm going back to 6 o'clock...

I've just scanned over the replies, but didn't notice anybody responding to my way of thinking.
Go back to the sub-6. Try it for a few months. You can't just make a major change like this, try it once, and then throw it out as no good.
I went through this several times before sticking with it.
I'd say that if you can get comparable results immediately, then the switch might be a very good thing to do. Like I said, give it a chance.

Hi RM

I think you migh have it the wrong way round.

I started with 6, did that for a year and a bit. Got to 560.

Based on theory and such like, decided to go sub6. I've now given it at least 6 months, and it has not been successful. I know I have only done one quick try at 6, but the results were dramatic.

So now I am thinking of going back to 6. It's not like I havent given the sub 6 a good try.

Theres good reasons for sub6, but they dont seem to work for me, in practice. A certain amount of 'what works, works' seems sensible to me.

Any reason not to go back ? Thats the question.

Bobs my baker wrote:I do not shoot like Hortons last post ! At times I have shot over 20 tens in a row. Each one was shot when I was holding a perfect 10. I know most on this site do not agree with that,but thats the way I shot. Like shooting 6oclock, I feel like im not guessing like I do when shooting sub 6. I also feel like im not guessing when I am shooting only when I have perfect sight alinement ,I dont want the gun to go off on its own or even feel like it is. ( when it does go off on its own it is usually a 10 ) I think MR. Horton has something there. (I just dont do it that way). All this thinking is giving me a headache ! Bob came by think I will have a roll.

BMB,
I am scratching my head, too. I used to shoot center hold, but I just can't see the front sight against the black due to aging eyes.

Lately, I've been shooting sub six, but I'm still not comfortable, however, there have been some good inside tens that were shot with little effort! I am going to experiment the rest of this year with various techniques with the Noptel and hope I learn something that makes me shoot better. 6 o'clock hold is on the experiment list, but I wish I could get center to work.

Oh, and next time Bob stops by, I'd like a poppy seed roll!
Ben
{is poppy seed on the banned substance list?}