TargetTalk

And what is ( or is there) a correlation between ammo consumption and scores?

When I was shooting police revolver, I'd notice a big jump in scores whenever I'd shoot more ammunition in my twice a week practice sessions. I was wondering if International shooters noticed a carry over of this to other disciplines like ORP?

I am trying to budget my ammunition. Dry-fire comes into play, but with a M-41 after the first dry-fire target the other four targets are simply sighted--theres no way to cock the pistol between "shots" and maintain the rythm (which is the nature of the beast with M-41s)

I'm guessing that 50 live rounds per training session, three times a week is a reasonable goal. How much do you shoot?

John Kasaian wrote:And what is ( or is there) a correlation between ammo consumption and scores?

During winter training, just after my annual break, I would shoot between 500 and 800 rounds of Standard Pistol on each Saturday and Sunday and at least 200 rounds on each of 3 evenings during the week. This was back in the days when I considered anything below a 570 was a bad shoot.

This would reduce as the competition season approached but would then also include lots of CF.

From about March onwards I would have expected to be shooting about 6 Standard or CF training matches per weekend.

Now, some 25 years later, I am exhausted just thinking about it, and I know there were others shooting much more.

It really depends how far you want to go in shooting. As a very wise man once said "if you ain't brought it with you, don't expect to find it here".

Well, talk about an impossible question to answer!

I can share some perspectives.

I am presently training to run a 10k race. I am not just going out every night and running a 10k as fast as I can. Some nights I literately jog at an easy pace. Another night I do "speed work," a series of sprints with slow jogs in between whilst I get my breath back. Other nights are "Tempo runs" where I am not racing but maintaining a fast pace that trains my body to deal with the lactic acid biuld up. Saturdays, I run my race. Each of these different training procedures works to improve my overall ability to run the 10k.

I suspect shooting works the same way. Training has to be targeted to improve some particular aspect of the event. When the goal is sending some number of round down range to improve, you might be missing the mark. How many rounds you need to fire might vary.

Consider doing a lot of one and two shoot strings. One shot just focused on raising the pistol properly. Then two shoots, raising the pistol and starting to the next target to learn the transition. Other times you made need to fire the five rounds to work on consistant timing and recovery from target to target.

Another related perspective suggests that the best in any event is the individual who has done the most intense training. This is partially in support of David's comments that he put in a lot of training. I would add some emphasis on the intensity of that training. Training Intensity is more important than the absolute amount of training.

On a personal note, I am not sure that I can define the combination for myself yet, but there is some combination of drills and live fire that results in improvement. Emphasis on drills or the live fire does not work for me. Even when my scores are better, they do not stay up unless I do the drills on a regular basis!

By the way, what is your investment in travel expense to the range, time to travel versus time to shoot versus ammo cost?

Volume in and of itself isn't really what one should be focusing on. When starting out at a relatively low level of proficiency increases in volume will gain increases in proficiency. What is really required is an increase in training properly, which may or may not result in an increase in shooting volume, depending on what the shooter's needs are.

A shooter who properly trains will almost always beat someone who just shoots a great volume without any focus on training.

Having participated in many sports through-out my life I still am amazed by this perception that some shooters have that going out and doing the same thing day after day at the range will some how improve their shooting. When I played football we worked on skills and drills, scrimmaged a couple time through the week and only really played one football game a week, same thing with baseball and soccer, yet in shooting people go to the range and shoot a 60 shot match over and over and over and expect there to be some different outcome.

Richard H wrote:.... yet in shooting people go to the range and shoot a 60 shot match over and over and over and expect there to be some different outcome.

Maybe I should have explained my definition of a "training match". It was not training to shoot, or even training to shoot a match; it was training to compete. This can best be done when you have 2 or more people of similar abilities and aspirations.

The only prize from these matches was "well done, you beat me, today". The experience and confidence gained was much more valuable.

David my response wasn't in regards to your posting but the OP'S question regarding volume. Training matches, finals training do have a place in a proper training program. What I'm talking about is the guys that go to the range day after day and shot 60 shot's and score them, I'm sure you've encountered this.

PETE S wrote:This is partially in support of David's comments that he put in a lot of training. I would add some emphasis on the intensity of that training. Training Intensity is more important than the absolute amount of training.

I would agree completely.

The easiest way to get that intensity is to train with someone of similar abilities who is following a similar training regime. Friendly rivalry at all stages of the training cycle can do nothing but good. It doesn't matter if you are trying something new; he/she might be doing so next time.

Richard H wrote:What I'm talking about is the guys that go to the range day after day and shot 60 shot's and score them, I'm sure you've encountered this.

Of course. To be perfectly honest, if that's what they want to do then that's fine; everyone wants different things from their shooting. I do get annoyed though when they try to convince me that they are working hard to improve.

The other thing that really annoys me is when I hear would-be champions come out with "it's not the winning, it's the taking part". That is absolute garbage. There is winning, and there is losing. Some people may have the goal of beating their average or winning a club match and consider they have won when they do so. That's fantastic, they are getting what they want from their shooting. IMHO though they won't be champion material until it hurts that they only come second in any match they enter.

(Wow, where did that come from. I'm off to lie down in a dark room for a while.)

David Levene wrote:

Richard H wrote:What I'm talking about is the guys that go to the range day after day and shot 60 shot's and score them, I'm sure you've encountered this.

Of course. To be perfectly honest, if that's what they want to do then that's fine; everyone wants different things from their shooting. I do get annoyed though when they try to convince me that they are working hard to improve.

The other thing that really annoys me is when I hear would-be champions come out with "it's not the winning, it's the taking part". That is absolute garbage. There is winning, and there is losing. Some people may have the goal of beating their average or winning a club match and consider they have won when they do so. That's fantastic, they are getting what they want from their shooting. IMHO though they won't be champion material until it hurts that they only come second in any match they enter.

(Wow, where did that come from. I'm off to lie down in a dark room for a while.)

Yes I agree, shooting is different things to different people, I get annoyed when those people who say they want to become elite have the nerve to ask why they did so bad. "Well maybe because you've done nothing to improve", they usually don't like that answer.

Shooting for the most part is a solitary venture, and as long as one can say they did their best they shouldn't be too disappointed in not winning, as winning requires something that one might not have control over (that being how the competition shoots).

Many people don't have a clue what it takes to be an elite shooter, the guy in the club that shoots 550 looks and sees that the elite only shoot 20-30 points higher than himself thinks he can do it, doing the same thing he's been doing for years after all it's just 20-30 points. I have all the respect for those that set a goal wether its being elite, national champ, state/prov. camp, the best in their club or simply moving through the classifications. Shooting needs all those people and even those that just want to plink. The frustration comes in when training people that aspire to greatness yet don't realize what it takes or are not willing to put in what it takes, for they are wasting both their time and that of the coaches.

The "it's not about winning crap" is this new modern age airy fairy crap, that basically tells everyone they are great, and there are no losers or winners. That is until the little ones go out into the real world where there are winners and losers and people really don't give a damn about your self esteem. Your employer doesn't give a damn if you're happy or feel good, and you can feel good when you actually do something good.

Richard H wrote: . . . . . . .
Having participated in many sports through-out my life I still am amazed by this perception that some shooters have that going out and doing the same thing day after day at the range will some how improve their shooting. When I played football we worked on skills and drills, scrimmaged a couple time through the week and only really played one football game a week, same thing with baseball and soccer, yet in shooting people go to the range and shoot a 60 shot match over and over and over and expect there to be some different outcome.

Yep, Richard, when I was shooting smallbore rifle position I had to share the range with the Bullseye guys if I wanted to shoot on Thursday. They did welcome me to shoot on "their" night and even left me try out their pistols.
I was working on improving my technique and position. Those guys were there to shoot a 900. I think there were 5 regulars and only one ever made it to sharpshooter.
Ben

John Kasaian wrote:I'm guessing that 50 live rounds per training session, three times a week is a reasonable goal. How much do you shoot?

It is not the amount of ammunition you shoot, but what you do with it.
You said per training session, well are you just practising shooting or are you setting a training goal to work on a particular part or exercise.
OK, an example. Rapidfire, considered a high consumption match.
You are going to shoot 4 sec. You can shoot a large number of 4 sec strings (up to 1000 to 1500 rounds) or you can set the timer to 3 sec duelling and train the first shot and transition to the second and third target, loading six rounds and shooting multiple strings.
You achieve the same or better training with 500 rounds.
Set a training goal.

David Levene wrote: Maybe I should have explained my definition of a "training match". It was not training to shoot, or even training to shoot a match; it was training to compete. This can best be done when you have 2 or more people of similar abilities and aspirations.

The only prize from these matches was "well done, you beat me, today". The experience and confidence gained was much more valuable.

Yes, this is the best way. We are 3 persons in my club in some sort of friendly rivalry and do enjoy whoever winning knowing that we all can win! Training mates at high level is hard to find! REAL happiness in shooting is to be able to ENJOY others good score. Winning is just because the competition was weak :-)

Kent

I agree that it isn't merely a question of how much ammo I burn through, but how much I can improve. What really concerns me is developing bad habits that would remain uncorrected since I am a "lone wolf" in this discipline at my range.

My memories of police revolver shooting remind me that one issue I want to address early on in making my training plans are to allow enough time and ammunition to achieve my goals.

Fortunately an excellent range isn't far away from where I live (alas no turning targets!) and is just a bit further out than the gym I go to, so shooting has an added benefit for me as a "reward" for working out.

With the economy being what it is here, I am very motivated to use my training ammunition allotment wisely. Dryfire helps but given the design of my pistol I feel rather limited (a trading pistols isn't an option for me.)

Thank you all for your expert advice---it's back to the training "drawing board" for me!

You may invent shooting mates!
Serie 1 is you
Serie 2 is Mr X (he is VERY good)
Serie 3 is Mr Y (he is way better)
And then you start all over again.
You do not like to be beaten by anyone, no?
DO NOT CHEAT

Kent

Thank you, Reinhamr---that will sure keep things interesting and fun!

Reinhamre wrote:You may invent shooting mates!
Serie 1 is you
Serie 2 is Mr X (he is VERY good)
Serie 3 is Mr Y (he is way better)
And then you start all over again.
You do not like to be beaten by anyone, no?
DO NOT CHEAT

Kent

There are also a couple of online postal matches you can shoot every month.

Great points everyone.

A pithy bottom line:

"It's not how much you [insert training activity here], it's whether or not you are doing the right things in th first place."

If you don't know where youare going, any road will take you there.

If the problem(s) that are holding you back can be improved by live fire training, shoot a case a day. If the problem(s) that you need to focus on aren't helped by live fire training, then . . . ?

Step 1: Understand the shooting process
Step 2: Understand the desired outcomes of each part of the process
Step 4: Evaluate your performance against the desired outcomes
Step 5: Find training activities that will close the gaps between your performance and desired performance.
Step 6: Train on those areas requiring improvement, using activities that will help improve them.
Step 7: Go to Step 1 and Repeat

Steve Swartz

[The *default* answer for "How Do I Train" is to just shoot a bunch of ammo. And maybe throw in some random drills you heard someone else rave about. And shoot a lot of "practice matches."]

Maybe we should do one of those "Poll Question" threads on "How many of us actually perform diagnostics to organize our training programs?"

Or just start with "How many of us have an organized training program?"

Boy do I cring when the first thing my new shooters (youth and college) ask me "how many bullets do I get to shoot". Almost always those people don't last very long.

I will always remember some things from Bassham's audio tapes:

(1) You have to set goals for practice and competition

(2) If your practice is going well then shoot alot, otherwise do something else.

(3) Don't practice shooting poorly, you will get good at it. Quality shots will reinforce themselves.

(4) quality, not quantity

(5) Poor shots don't make you a poor shooter. How one responds to less than average shots determines the champion.

A statement that I use (don't know if I made it up or heard it somewhere):

There is no such thing as a poor shot, unless it does not leave the barrel. There are only above average, average and below average shots and everyone has to have all three by the mathematical laws of statistics.

PaulB wrote:(4) quality, not quantity

That's good, but quality and quantity is better.

I think I read in the Sievers book that Ralf Schumann fired 6000-8000 rounds per week training for Olympic Rapid fire. That's a lot of ammo. Kate