TargetTalk

What do you do to lock the wrist? I know its a ball joint and really can't be locked, but I used to be able to do it, and now it seems like it wants to unlock as I shoot. I think its a mental thing antisipating the recoil.

Try firming the wrist prior to squeezing the fist.

Are you talking about using a 1911? I got a lot of coaching from an older Army pistol team captain. His team used to shoot double hardball in 2700 matches. He always emphasized locking the elbow for better follow through and fast recovery.
I hope this technique may help you.
Cheers,
Jim

I have no problem locking the elbow, its the wrist. Yes, I'm talking a 1911.

What I do is throw three dummy rounds and three live rounds in a coffee can, shake them up and load a mag without looking at the rounds so I dont know when I pull the trigger if its live or not.

I can clearly see its my wrist breaking, but I can't seem to correct it. I will try firming the wrist then the grip and see what happens.

Hi Ken,
Do you see the wrist breaking when you fire on a dummy? If your wrist is breaking at the moment of discharge, you may be experiencing a trigger control/anticipation problem. If so, the wrist movement is more of a symptom than the problem itself. The live/dummy drill is a good technique. Another is LOTS of dry fire. Other thoughts:
Some people will seat the mainspring housing more into their palm when taking a grip. This will lock the wrist's side to side motion and will stiffen the up and down motion somewhat. You may need a shorter trigger as you will lose some amount of reach with the index finger.
Another solution may be to switch out mainspring housings. I like the arched housing as it gives me a more natural point of aim. It also gives a slightly more rakish grip. It's not as much angle as a European grip. I have also seen a mainspring housing with a pronounced wedge shape. I found it a bit big buy it might work for you. I can't remember who made it, but I think Brownell's has them.
When taking a grip, I ensure that most of my grip pressure comes from the middle finger and very little comes from the little finger. In fact, I have practiced a lot with using just the middle finger to grip. Once I take up first stage and begin the squeeze I do not stop. This is important! I don't let up to adjust sight picture. The motion is continuous and straight back.
By the way, is your mainspring housing and grip either checkered or stippled? I find this to be an immense help to controlling a 1911.

Hope this might be of some help,
Jim

Yes, I see the wrist breaking when I fire on the dummy. When I dry fire I have no problem. The gun is an older SA Milspec, arched housing and is striped.

Thanks for the info, you gave me a couple things to try. I believe it is an anticipation problem.

Hi Ken,
Sounds like you're on to something! If dry fire is going well, then it sounds like you have good trigger control working for you. But, when dry firing we all know the gun won't go "bang". With the live/dummy drill that's not the case.
I've found that just getting set up on the range with the gun box, brass catcher, ear protection, etc. that I "forget" some of my dry fire skills simply because of the loss of familiarity. I've made it a habit to do a bit of dry fire on the range prior to live fire just to re-establish some fundamentals.

Jim

6string wrote:Hi Ken,
Sounds like you're on to something! If dry fire is going well, then it sounds like you have good trigger control working for you. But, when dry firing we all know the gun won't go "bang". With the live/dummy drill that's not the case.
I've found that just getting set up on the range with the gun box, brass catcher, ear protection, etc. that I "forget" some of my dry fire skills simply because of the loss of familiarity. I've made it a habit to do a bit of dry fire on the range prior to live fire just to re-establish some fundamentals.

Jim

One of the really big differences between Bullseye and International Pistol shooting, is that ISSF rules allow more time for set up (which most use for dry firing exercise) and for sighters. In the precision events - air pistol and 50M pistol - you get 10 min to set up and unlimited time and shots for sighters. Of course, the more time spent on sighters, the less time available for shots for score.

Fred,
True! I was speaking from a "practice" standpoint. Guess I should have clarified that in my previous post...
Thanks,
Jim

PS: Wish I'd added a comment about tension. I think a lot of people who injure themselves with elbow problems, carpal tunnel, etc. do so by trying to lock things up too much. Better to learn good follow through and letting recoil "flow", especially with hardball!!

You mentioned in one of your posts that you were trying to take your grip depending primarily on the middle finger. I've never tried this technique but instead wished for six fingers on my right hand and wanting to use all six to wrap around the 1911. The fundamental of grip is to hold the pistol tight enough so it will stay in the same place fron shot to shot. Hold it in exactly the same way on every shot. Make sure your trigger finger is moving straight to the rear and parallel to the long axis of the barrel. Next, you want to see natural sight allignment as the pistol is raised to the line your eyes see the target on. And then you will want to establish your natural point of aim in the middle of whatever hold you decide to use. My personnel hold is center hold all the way across the course. Good Shooting , [ use only the parts of this that make sense to you ] Bill Horton

Bill,

IIRC you said in another thread that learning how to keep your wrist stiff during the shot was one of the most difficult things you had to do. Please tell us how you learned to do it. I know it's a problem for me, but I am not making much progress with it.

Thanks,
FredB

Fred, I had about the weakest wrist on the firing line and felt that I had to find a way to stiffen it so thar recovery was more precice. I learned to take my shooting grip then place tho muzzel of the pistol against the shooting bench and press down causing the muscles that hold the wrist straight to resist the down ward pressure. I repeated this exercise on every shot and sustained fire strings . I saw other shooters that did not seem to have what I called a " lazy wrist 'and dont believe I ever fully conqured the problem. But I did reduce the effect of the wrist deflection caused by the recoil to much less of a problem. I hope this will help. Good Shooting Bill Horton

I learned to take my shooting grip then place tho muzzel of the pistol against the shooting bench and press down causing the muscles that hold the wrist straight to resist the down ward pressure.

I use this technique as well. It's a good way to set the wrist prior to raising the pistol IMO.

There are two articles by Anatoliy Piddubnyy on Pilkington's site that address methods for setting and maintaining consistent wrist tension - http://www.pilkguns.com/pistolcoaching.shtml

2650 Plus wrote:Fred, I had about the weakest wrist on the firing line and felt that I had to find a way to stiffen it so thar recovery was more precice. I learned to take my shooting grip then place tho muzzel of the pistol against the shooting bench and press down causing the muscles that hold the wrist straight to resist the down ward pressure. I repeated this exercise on every shot and sustained fire strings . I saw other shooters that did not seem to have what I called a " lazy wrist 'and dont believe I ever fully conqured the problem. But I did reduce the effect of the wrist deflection caused by the recoil to much less of a problem. I hope this will help. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Bill,

Thanks for the information. I spent over an hour today dry-firing and trying to do it exactly as you described above. I felt the increased tension in the underside of my upper arm (the triceps), the upper side of my lower arm, and in a firmer grip. It definitely seemed that the sights came up on line more consistently than they had before. Each time I raised using this method the sights were in the same place, so I guess that's good. However, I didn't actually feel anything in my wrist. In fact the more I think about it the more it seems that I can't stiffen my wrist independently, but only by tensing the muscles above (lower arm) and below it (hand). Is this correct in your experience?

Thanks,
FredB

Fred, I almost agree except that the muscles I stiffened seemed to be mostly in the forearm and ,as you descrie, the triceps. I concentrated primarily on what seemed to hold the wrist as firmly as I could manage and tried to sustain the stiffiness through out the string and on individual shots. I have a feeling thst I may have been less sucessful than planned because my concentration shifted to settle , stillness, trigger finger start moving,final settle, SIGHT ALLIGNMENT ,broken by the recoil of the pistol firing. So I really don't have clear mental recognition of what happened to my wrist stiffening efforts. Hope this helps, Good Shooting Bill Horton

2650 Plus wrote:Fred, I almost agree except that the muscles I stiffened seemed to be mostly in the forearm and ,as you descrie, the triceps. I concentrated primarily on what seemed to hold the wrist as firmly as I could manage and tried to sustain the stiffiness through out the string and on individual shots. I have a feeling thst I may have been less sucessful than planned because my concentration shifted to settle , stillness, trigger finger start moving,final settle, SIGHT ALLIGNMENT ,broken by the recoil of the pistol firing. So I really don't have clear mental recognition of what happened to my wrist stiffening efforts. Hope this helps, Good Shooting Bill Horton

This sounds just like hard pressing the backstrap into position at the "V" and base of hand before wrapping the fingers on the front strap. Thus firming the wrist first.

Look here
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/chapter1.htm
at an earlier version of the AMU manual.

Everything is right on there but they don't explain HOW to squeeze to tremor and then release a bit. I bet most people take squeeze as fist tightening. Well, it's not. Grip squeeze is front to back or better yet, back to front. You got to keep the wrist firm. If you fist squeeze too much the wrist muscles loose control. Try tighten your wrist and rear of hand without a pistol. Just semi-close your fingers into a cup shape. Then place the backstrap into the V.

I do a lot of dry firing against a white wall and I see virtually no movements of the sights as the hammer falls. I feel this exercise has helped me a lot to improve my trigger control and performance with .45 Cal (and with other calibers as well including air pistol). I think this is beyond discussion. Nevertheless dry firing did not help me to avoid a reflex action that makes me sink noteciably the front sight when I fire a dummy. I don´t know, because I can´t tell with certainty, if this also happens whith live fire. In any case it does not seem to impare the quality of the shot, otherwise all my shots would be flyers and now they very seldom are. I think is a jerky movement that follows with a small but measurable delay the acknolwedment by the brain that the shot is a dummy, so I don´t think it takes place in live firing. I have always found this effect very curious and always try to get rid of it, for example thinking I am dry firing, but is very difficult to eliminate completely. By the way my grip is very, very tight and I exercise continiously with a rubber ball to improve it, since I am a left hand shooter but my strong hand is the righ one.

I learn so much from you. This forum is without peer on the 'net that I have been able to find.