TargetTalk

This looks interesting - a three-position rifle from Crosman using the Challenger stock and the Discovery powerplant:

http://www.airgunsofarizona.com/blog/20 ... auder.html

Has anyone gotten an advance peek?

First I've heard of it.

But according to their specs it doesn't look like Crossman has learned anything from the Challenger 2000.

Specs say it will shoot 70 shots without a refill. Normal 3 P air rifle match is 60 record shots, plus sighters. You're still going to have to fill it up during a match.

Also ... the specs say it weights 7.3 lbs .... hope it is not more .... if you put a handstop on it it may go over......

Personally, using both CO2 and Air is not a feature for me ..... I'd rather have seen them go air only & get the pressure up to support more shots.
70 shots is only an average of 3 sighters in each position.

Here at altitude (4500-7000 ft) we seem to get fewer than the specs call out.

Wonder what the price is?

70 shots is all the Daisy Valiant is designed for and no one is complaining abuot it. A kid that takes more than 10 sighters needs better coaching IMHO

I would have to strongly disagree that someone taking 10+ sighters needs better coaching. Sighters aren't just got getting your sights right, they're for settling in, both mentally and physically. I make it routine to take 10 sighters minimum for my first strings in standing and kneeling. I tell my juniors to take at least 6-8 sighters minimum no matter the position.

I found one online for $399. I've suggested this gun to my juniors for practicing at home. The stock is so similar to the 1903s we use in my program.

jhmartin wrote:Personally, using both CO2 and Air is not a feature for me ..... I'd rather have seen them go air only & get the pressure up to support more shots.

One of the "features" of the Discovery platform is the low pressure (2000 psi), which does realistically allow someone who isn't Hulk Hogan to fill it with a pump (which makes it interesting to me).

Note that Crosman said something about "at least" 70 shots, and I gather we'll have to wait and see how many it really gets.

Finally, the entry-level Discovery is also a "dual-fuel" powerplant, and as I recall, it got a lot of shots on one load of CO2, which is another option.

In any case, always nice to see another player in the game.

70 shots is all the Daisy Valiant is designed for and no one is complaining abuot it. A kid that takes more than 10 sighters needs better coaching IMHO

The Daisy Valient XSV-40 will EASILY shoot more than 160 shots on a full fill ... enough for two full 3x20 matches.
The Daisy 888/887 powerplant will go for over 230-240 shots

As to needing more than 10 sighter shots .... when you have kids sharing guns (moving from a rt hander to a left hander, the shooters are beginner to intermediate ..... I'd propose if they are not taking at least 5 sighters in EACH position they are giving away points.

I'd recomend you send your concerns and ideas to Martk DeBoard ( MDeBoard@crosman.com ) 585-657-3026

Here's an article on the new Challenget PCP;

Crosman is also announcing a new 3-position target rifle, a redesigned model of its highly successful Challenger 2000, the new Challenger PCP. Built on the innovative Discovery platform, the rifle will be a .177 caliber, single shot, bolt action, three-position competition target rifle. The Challenger PCP features a fully adjustable stock, ambidextrous steel straight pull bolt, hooded front aperture and fully adjustable rear sight. The synthetic stock will be have an adjustable butt plate and cheek piece for the best possible fit. The new Challenger PCP will also feature a fully adjustable, two-stage, match grade trigger.

Featuring an adjustable striker travel and spring system, the Challenger PCP will allow for velocity control adjustments to offer proper performance, no matter the competition format. A minimum of 70 shots are possible at 530 fps on a single charge of air. The Challenger PCP also comes equipped with a floating Lothar Walther barrel which ensures superior accuracy. The Challenger PCP uses Crosman’s Dual Fuel technology and will run on either High Pressure Air or CO2. Working on only 2000 psi of pressure means that anyone will be able to fill this gun using either a hand pump or high pressure air bottle.

Crosman consulted with Ray and Hans Apelles to help make the new Challenger PCP a rifle that will exceed competition target shooters’ expectations. In addition to being two of the most prolific airgun shooters today, Ray and Hans Apelles are also the newest members of Team Crosman. Their years of experience shooting and combined technical knowledge make them a perfect fit for Crosman and a perfect test bed for the new technologies you will see in the next generation of Crosman and Benjamin guns.

The Challenger PCP will weigh 7.3 lbs, while the length will be adjustable from 38 ¾ inches to 41 ¾ inches.

And, yes, I expect to be testing both the new Marauder and the new Challenger as soon as they become available. Here;'s some more information.

Til next time, aim true and shoot straight.

- Jock Elliott

Any Coach / Parent worth their salt can figure out how to reduce the weight of the Challenger by enough to make weight. I'd drill some holes in that very solid stock to get it down, same as what we do to raise the weight of the Daisy 499s to make them heaver and more stable.

I sent Mark DeBoard (for his engineering staff) my thoughts on the minimum number of shots and velocity they should be working towards. If you care what I said, email me (EODTNT1@aol.com) and I'll share my thoughts and comments...

Don't forget that this rifle has not even been finalized or gone to production yet... Looks like release around July or so...

Don't overlook the Edge... If it ever gets released... It might be good...

I find it "odd" that Crossman would use FT shooters (Hans and Ray) to test what is a 10m rifle. Why did they not get 10m shooters and coaches involved. Or maybe they wanted to use the names of Hans and Ray because they "think" that would be better advertising text.

Considering the large following of this program it would be appreciated if somebody suitably qualified reviews this rifle.

It would be great if they had a working model to let a few shooters try at the 3-P nationals during training day

I have been watching the development of this rifle since last August (or so).

I think it started out as field target shooters modifying a Discovery. They fitted it with a Challenger stock and slicked up the trigger and it preformed fairly well. They then gave it a custom trigger and barrel and were very pleased with it (for Field Target).

In September the Discovery forum's thread was mostly curious how it would be modified for production - and the price point. Personally I was very excited about it. I was hopefully they would release it as a multi-purpose gun that could serve as a backyard plinker, and an intermediate level 3p/silhouette/field target rifle.
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When it comes down to it - it is easy to want everything.

Light enough for jr's - but could add weights to grow with the shooter (t200 is lighter). Stock that could adjust for the same (edge wins, but wood works). Power control - enough sub 600fps for 3P, but adjustment for field target or silhouette (crosman might have a win here). Legal for sporter class and cheep enough for the masses (Daisy has the win here - and at an msrp of $600, I think the masses were missed). Match trigger and accuracy.

Reality is you have to pick and choice your priorities. Right now there is lots of vaporware is clouding the decisions.

Sorry but anyone who thinks 35-45 shots is enough for a 3P match needs more digits to count with. ( Even a 3x10) I'm glad it isn't in production yet so there is time to change it.

I suppose you could always do what we do with the current Challenger ... if I ever get desperate enough to have a kid have to use one .... change the CO2 cylinder out after each position.

from reading Discovery threads (months and months ago), I highly suspect that their # shots/charge is listed as a worse case situation (ie, when used as a field target rifle with the power turned up).
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I saw a review of the discovery that stated a "field fill" of co2 giving 50-60 shots of a .22 at 630fps. (They expected they charged about 1.2 oz and a full charge would have been 1.7-2oz. As such, I suspect that a full charge of co2 with a .177 tuned below 600fps would yield over 100 shots - but that is my own wild guess.

My opinion is bias from using a Tau - which seems to easily shoot over 100 shots per fill. That said, I don't mind a few minutes work to insure a temp difference to do a co2 charge.

I've had a couple of conversations with the Crosman Rep and emailed some thoughts to the Engineers about things like velocity, min number of shots for a 3 x 20 or 60 standing, including things like sighters in each position. I think they understand our needs and you'll likely see a very different set of technical specs when they release the final product. I also saw a couple of shot groups at various velocities... The new barrel looks like it'll hold a pretty tight group.

We'll see...

Roy McClain
EODTNT1@aol.com

Any news on the AirForce Edge? I'm not sure that one will ever be released...

We had a rifle on display on the coach's table at the NM State Championship & Western Cup CMP match yesterday (4/18).

One of my "ex" shooters who was there watching his brother shoot and got conned into firing this "out of competition" in the match (3x20). He holds a JD badge and has medaled in the AL National match. He has not shot in a match (or even practiced for that matter that I know of) since before Thanksgiving last.

He fired a respectable 522 with this rifle. My concern of gas running out was unfounded. Note: we had it charded with air. There is a knob under the bolt that we think determines the gas pressure .... we had it cranked all the way in for what seemed max velocity and still had over 3/4 fill at the end of the match. (Owners manual? We don't need ...... To be honest we did not go thru the rifle case looking for it ..... just handed him the rifle & said ... "Go Shoot it")

Velocity seemed a bit low to my liking .... between an 853 and an 888.
A few other issues that we'll be reporting to Crosman, but it appears this would be a good rifle for the council to add to the sporter mix.

The Challenger 2009 was on display at the JO and it looks impressive. The tank is non-removable so it can't be replaced in the middle of a match. If you are using CO2, you could conceivably fill it during a match if you need to using the included adapter and a 20 ounce paintball tank, but I don't think you need to. The tank holds over 1.5 oz of CO2. A Daisy Avanti 887 uses about .5 to .7 ounces of CO2 during a 3x20 match (including 50 sighters). If the Challenger 09 uses CO2 at the same rate, it would be more than enough.

The rifle includes a bleeding tool, so you don't have to dump a partial fill to chill the tank for a full CO2 fill.

As far as air, I don't know if 2000 psi is going to be enough for a 3x20 match. Most competitive teams either have access to scuba or to a high pressure source, so 3000 psi would be a better choice. I don't know if the integrated tank is rated to 3000psi.

The nicest thing about the Challenger 09 is the trigger. It has a 1 pound first stage and an .6 pound second stage. You pull up the slack on the first stage and the second stage is a very short and crisp release. Nice. There is a lot of slack on the first stage. It didn't bother me but some of the other people that handled the rifle thought it was too long.

The rifle also has an ambidextrous cocking lever and an easily accessed loading port.

The rep said that the rifle would start shipping in August 09.

We didn't get to shoot the Challenger 09 at Camp Perry, but a pre-production Air Force Edge was available for shooting. It evidently still needs some more work even though it seems to have all the right pieces. It is light and compact and would be a good choice for the smaller shooter if it ever makes it to market and they can figure out the accuracy issues. BTW, the sights on the Edge are very good. I expect that these sights will replace all the Gamo and Chinese copies of the Gamo sights on most competitors sporter rifles within the next three years. They are that good.