TargetTalk

I have been doing a bit of research lately upon the effects of fitness and muscular strength for shooting and I have come up with a few conclusions

- Core strength for the most part is a good thing and can help stabalize the body resulting in a more
- Strong muscle strength for the most part is not needed - muscle endurance however is.
- Cardio and been generally in shape is a good thing.

Now something I have heard a lot is that bulking up and developing strong muscle strength is a bad thing. Now my question basically is - Is this a general idea or has it actually been proved.

Reason I ask is that I am interested in getting in physical shape by lifting weights but dont' want it to hinder my shooting. I understand that fine motor skills are needed which I completely undertsand but assuming that regular stretching still takes place, etc is weightlifting OK? I have been working out about 3 days a week for the past month or so and so far my shooting has actually gotten a bit better.

I would also like to know if lifting weights affects your score.

I do pull-ups, not weights, and have noticed that I can do more after a break.

I think it takes more than overnight for your muscles to recover after a workout.

Again, if anyone has an answer to this question, I would be interested.

I took full advantage of the trainers at the college where I shot and I believe it was a large component of my progress. I personally have not heard of anyone bulking up so much that it hurt their shooting. Most people stop before that so they don't have to go buy another coat.

I graduated high school 6'2", 140lbs (cross country). Through high school I had a heart rate in the 40s when shooting and it was a huge advantage in prone matches. I got to college having never shot air rifle and had a little trouble at first with a 60 shot match, but it didn't take long for me to get used to it. This shows it only takes practice to get in good enough shape to participate competitively.

My sophomore year, I hit the weight room and packed on 30lbs of muscle in the first two months of school (wasn't aiming for that much, just happened). That was immediately followed by great progress in my shooting. I was the lab rat of our trainers for developing a rifle workout, and 8 of the 12 exercises they had me do concentrated on the core.

I found dead-lifts to be of special benefit. Take Perry, horrible winds leads to lots of holds. My first Perry after putting on the muscle, I must have picked up the rifle 100 times for each target both days, and I barely noticed. I ended up finishing 24th overall.

Like all sports, a higher level of fitness is beneficial. I'm a student assistant coach at my college now and I'm in charge of workouts. I personally think the 2 hours per week we require is a little short, 3 hours would be better (3 1 hour workouts). We're not the only college requiring workouts for our rifle team members.

The main benefit I feel is mental. When you don't feel any tremors, twinges, tweeks, or burns when shooting, you don't think about them at all. That lets you concentrate on the task at hand, shooting 10s. For places like Perry, it gives you the endurance to do what you need to shoot well. In terms of bulking up being detrimental, I went from 140-170 with no adverse effects. Going to the extreme and me going to 200+ would be excessive. Our rifles have a weigh limit, not minimum, though the extra power could be nice carrying in equipment.

An easy way to keep from using too much weight, aim to do 3 sets of 10 for your exercises. If you have a trainer you can talk to, tell them about the sport, you want to concentrate on your core, and you're going for endurance more than power. They'll be able to get you pointed in the right direction if you'd like a rifle specific workout.

Of the best shooters in my club,

2 do very little physical exercise

1 is an accomplished ballet dancer

3 are High School Cheerleaders and do quite a bit of weight and physical training. I think they also do dance classes of one form or another.

A couple others seem to be in pretty good shape, but I don't know what their physical training regime is.


Based on what I see in my shooters, I think Jordan's conclusions are right.

i am a cross-country runner and bicycle racer and i don't think i would be shooting the scores that i shoot if it weren't for my physical fitness.

to answer your question, i've not heard any studies that proved bulk muscle hinders fine motor skills. still, i would stay away from big weights and concentrate on high reps. you will be toned with strong and efficient muscle but will not bulk up. i mostly use a stability ball and a medicine ball; there are loads of things you can do with them especially for your core, and each are about $25.

CMP has run an excellent series of articles in their "On the Mark" magazine (available online at ODCMP.com) about fitness. It is written by an ex Alaska-Fairbanks shooter that is a Licensed Massage Therapist/Posture Specialist. Check their current edition on line and any archives for the last 3 or 4 editions for more info. It can't hurt.

I can only believe that weight training will help. I'm an older guy (61) and can remember when, as a young hockey player, was told that weight training would hurt the finess of a speed sport. We were told to lay off the weights. Then when Gretzky came along and hit the pros, the first thing they did was put him in a weight program and he gained 30 pounds of muscle. It sure didn't hurt him... I think more toned muscle is like replaceing a 6 cylinder engine with a bigger V8, less strain to get the job done.

Just my opinion.

Thanks for the repleis everyone! Exactly the type of information i was looking for.

I believe my fitness has helped me thus far as I mentioned. I am only 16 years old right now and feel I am in decent to very good shape. Lately my physical training has consisted of:

- Developing core muscles
- 100 sit ups X 3
- Plank exercise - 2 minutes X 3
- Jackknife exercies (100x1)

- Cardio
- Running/jogging (usually for 15 minutes or so) 2 times a week maybe
- Sports such as basketball just to keep level of fintess up

- Further muscle developement
- Push ups - 25 X 2
- Bench press (usually I do 100 or 130lbs - 15X2 or 10X3)
- Butterfly exercise
- Bicep Curls (25lbs) 2x15

This is the majority of my exercices. I may be doing a bit more than most shooters do but as mentioned, if anything it has helped my shooting so far, and of course its quite rewarding in itself.

My build is quite slim 5"11, 148lbs (have gained about 8 pounds or so working out so far!) so obviously I can still bulk up quite a bit. So so far it has been a positive in both sides (both getting physically in shape and doing well in shooting).

My core muscles are feeling better than they ever have and I believe as I mentioned in my first post that I believe they are important for building a stable position. I am doing 500-600 sit ups with in a course of 20-30 minutes without too much trouble. Definately couldn't have doen that 3 months ago and my shooting wasn't quite as good back then either.

Another thing I have been doing is working on balance with a wobble board, and, believe it or not, with video games. My sister got a new system, (wii fit) and it is actually quite amazing how that thing works. I know for sure it has helped me develope a good sence of balance.
I know this may not be the most popular way of training on here but what the heck! it seems to work for me. Heres a vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oNVIcMnZh4

Training with heavy weights produces muscle fibres of a different sort than training with small weights repetitively. Or more accurately we have both fibres in our muscles but training alters the ratio of the two. The fibres produced in heavy weight training are the wrong sort as we want to develop the fine control.

There's plenty of data out there detailing this more - try googling 'skeletal muscle fibres' etc. Or I'm pretty sure Patricks targetshooting.ca site has sections on it as well.

Rob.

I've read the same reports that Rob is referring to. I can't remember where I read the reports about the twitching muscles, but do remember that weight lifting does not develop the proper muscles for holding steady. However, I noticed my hold is worse when I don't continue lifting weights when shooting pistol. I will continue with weights and holding exercises as a balance in my training.
I also know my hold is much better as a result of road bike riding and the reduced pulse is very beneficial in all positions.
Ben

It's not that lifting any weights creates the wrong muscle fibers. Power lifting creates the wrong fibers. So long as you make lift such that you can complete 3 sets of 10-15 reps at your given weight, you should be ok. That was the rule I stuck to. I chose a starting weight I could do 3x10 and would do that until I could easily do 3x15, then I'd add 2.5-5lbs depending on the exercise and go back to 3x10.

The trainers also had me use free weights more than machines to help develop the fine muscle control muscles that we use so much. We also used swiss balls and bozu balls a lot for balance. I've never shot on anything unsteady and don't really plan to, but have heard it helps some people. Other people felt it messed them up a little bit.

Thanks again for the replies. I did a bit of reasearch on the skeletal muscle fibres and found some interesting information. Basically there are two types of muscle fibres - type 1 (slow twitch) and type 2 (fast twitch). Type one fibres are the type that would be used by long distance runners, bikers, canoers, etc. They involve building up endurance for an extended period of time. This, of course, would be the type of fibres that a shooter woud like to have. Type 2 on the other hand, are better for sprinters, weightlifters, etc. They involve developing strength instead of endurance. The speed with which the neurons communicate with their related fibers dictates the characterization of the fiber as either a fast twitch or a slow twitch all muscles possess both fast-twitch and slow-twitch fibers. Neurons communicate with fast twitch mucles at a much faster pace (approx 10X faster).

So for us developing slow twitch mucles, and fine motor control seems to be the most important. However, from what I read, lifting weights does NOT mean that you will be harming your ability to build up slow twitch fibres, if done correctly that is. A couple general rules of thumb i heard was that if you are doing more than about 10 repatitions of weights than you wil not be building up your fast twitch. Its only when you are really going with real heavy weights and can only do a couple reps that you do. From what I gathered, doing reps of 10-15 with weights will build up the slow twich mucles. I also saw that taking breaks in between these reps is important.

Here is some other information

http://www.faqs.org/sports-science/Mo-P ... witch.html

Training to build slow twich mucle fibres.

Step1Center your exercise regimen around slow, long-distance aerobic activity. Running for 30 to 45 minutes is a great way to prepare your slow twitch fibers for more intense endurance work.

Step2Perform sets of high-rep lifts during your weight training sessions. Aim for somewhere between 12 and 20 lifts per set. This builds strength without forcing your body to exert itself too strenuously.

Step3Add interval training to your standard aerobic exercise program. For example, break up longer runs into alternating 3-minute segments of hard running and jogging.

Step4Make sure you get plenty of protein in your diet. Without eating the right amount of protein, your body won't be able to build larger, stronger slow twitch muscle fibers.

Step5Do your training runs at 80 percent of your race pace. This is fast enough to build endurance, but slow enough to prevent over-training injuries from creeping into your body.

Step6Cross train to strengthen your slow twitch muscle fibers without over training. For example, if you normally run, try cycling or swimming instead of jogging.

Jordan

I am a powerlifter who is just getting into target shooting, so I have no way to determine whether my shooting might have been marginally better beforehand, but I strongly suspect that would not be the case.

I agree with some other comments - eat lots of protein, incorporate cardio etc. However, if you want to build strength, mid to low reps are far better (4-8), with failure of the muscle being the ultimate objective, since strength building comes from the muscle healing microscopic tears. Compound exercises such as squat and deadlift engage many stabilizer muscles and the core at the same time, which adds to one's overall stability. Working the abs and arms alone will do nothing.

Again, I don't believe developing power will interfere with the ability to hold the shooting position. Your major problem would probably be muscle soreness if shooting in the days after heavy workouts.

For reference sake, I am 5-10, ~200lb and squat/deadlift in the 350lb+ range.

I have been thinking of something in the same area. Is cardio training good for shooting or can it even be contra productive? A lower HF equals to a higher output per stroke. And if that concurs to higher blood pressure it should means bigger movements every heart beat. A quick example is:
5000 mL/min / 70 HF = 71 mL output
5000 mL/min / 50 HF = 100 mL
The heart can still produce volumes up to 250 mL (in a highly trained individual) but how will this difference affect hold? It could be that bigger type 1 fibers means easier relaxation and dilation of blood vessels leading to lower BP and neutralize it. Anybody know how it works?

Two notes: 1. Changing your ratio between type 1 and type 2a is possible but takes a long time. Shooters which are not interested in doing physical training 12 h/w wont be able to use this. What happens in normal training is type 1 or 2a grows bigger but mot more (its type 2x that moves between).
2. There is no research supporting that a high percentage protein in your diet will help the body grow faster. The normal limits of 15 E% is enough or more precisely about 1,4 g/kg bodyweight for cardio and 1,7 g/kg in strength training. In normal words: almost everybody gets enough of protein already. The only difference is a recovery meal including 10 g (in latest research papers) of protein (and carbs) to reduce recovery time needed for rebuilding muscles.
/EJ

I have been thinking of something in the same area. Is cardio training good for shooting or can it even be contra productive? A lower HF equals to a higher output per stroke. And if that concurs to higher blood pressure it should means bigger movements every heart beat. A quick example is:
5000 mL/min / 70 HF = 71 mL output
5000 mL/min / 50 HF = 100 mL
The heart can still produce volumes up to 250 mL (in a highly trained individual) but how will this difference affect hold? It could be that bigger type 1 fibers means easier relaxation and dilation of blood vessels leading to lower BP and neutralize it. Anybody know how it works?

Two notes: 1. Changing your ratio between type 1 and type 2a is possible but takes a long time. Shooters which are not interested in doing physical training 12 h/w wont be able to use this. What happens in normal training is type 1 or 2a grows bigger but mot more (its type 2x that moves between).
2. There is no research supporting that a high percentage protein in your diet will help the body grow faster. The normal limits of 15 E% is enough or more precisely about 1,4 g/kg bodyweight for cardio and 1,7 g/kg in strength training. In normal words: almost everybody gets enough of protein already. The only difference is a recovery meal including 10 g (in latest research papers) of protein (and carbs) to reduce recovery time needed for rebuilding muscles.
/EJ

I can attest to a low heart rate making things different. I was a cross country runner in high school doing about 50-60mi a week August through February. My resting heart rate got down to just under 50 BPM. When I would shoot, I could get it closer to 40. Hooking me up to a noptel, my teammates in college were amazed at the jump in my hold with each heart beat. Between beats, my hold was inside the 10 rings of an international 50m target. A heart beat would put me out the top around a 9.7-9.8. Putting them on the noptel, their hold wasn't quite what mine was, but their heartbeat really didn't jump out of their holds like mine did.

But when I was shooting at the time, I don't feel I lost a significant number of points due to this. It's another one of those things you just get used to. Take my heart rate then and give it to a person who is used to 70bpm, and they'll have trouble, yes. EJ is right, it takes a while to change your resting heart rate enough to impact your shooting, and I would venture to say that the amount of time it takes helps offset any negative impact it could have because you're slowly getting used to it over that period of time.

I came at shooting from a cycling and running background. I have found the same events to be true as Bill has noted for himself. With better aerobic fitness, a lower rate but much greater impulse. More work has to be done with fewer beats. I can easily pick it up with a scope and shoot in between, but cannot detect with aperture. Are others able to do this with metallic sights?
Dennis

Ever look at a pistol shooter's arms?

I´ve been doing some more thinking and found out that it´s way more complicated than i first thought. The only studies that is done in this area suggests that elite shooters pull the trigger between heartbeats. The problem is just that pulse pressure comes after contraction which means they shoot during the peak in pressure. Then the blood volume goes through the arteries and produces pressure in various places which affects stability. And where is it really affecting stability? Not a lot of places to jump between body and rifle; in 10m only l+r hands, cheek (low blood pressure here) and belly. Maybe shoulder too but the buttplate is normally tucked in quite good. So during normal pulse it´s hard to see any extra vulnerable place of contact. So is it really possible to pull the trigger between contractions? Then there´s the matter of barrel movements. If the pulse comes in a regular pace it probably means pushing the barrel in different directions each time depending of were it was heading at that moment.
Talked to a experienced coach nearby and he too haven´t seen any good studies. Something interesting he said was when a scatt trace (or other equipment) is divided in the core elements there is a low amount of moments in the heart rates frequency area. Most moments are in low and high freq which should mean balance, movements from the legs and muscle tone. His idea was that pulse in a stable, well put together position would not affect it.
Soupy44: do you have the same rate today and how has your hold changed? it could be that the sling was not perfectly adjusted that day and beats from your arm traveled in to the muzzle.
/EJ

My resting heart rate is around 60 now. Don't quite have the time to put the mileage in anymore for it to be lower. The last time I shot prone on a noptel was a few months ago, and my hold was essentially the same size, minus the jumps.

I shot prone on the noptel every few months right out of high school and had the same results each time. I wish we had the heart sensor you can hook up to let you plot your heart beats with your hold. But my teammates could all see in my hold when it beat.

EJ, I agree with your coach that most of the time our heart beats will be inside our holds. Prone is likely the only place it might not. And even then, anyone who has a heart beat large enough and hold small enough will likely be good enough to deal with it.

I went Distinguished in both prone and 3P when my heart rate was in the 40s before I was 22. I chose the word "different" instead of "difficult" in my last post for that reason. There's nothing wrong with your heart rate either way. If I had let match pressure get the better of me then, I would have been in trouble. On the other end of the spectrum, those with heart rates of 80+ would see constant movement, almost a vibration, on a noptel, rather than a beat and a pause. I would find that disconcerting personally, though I bet both me and that guy would be equally confident in our own holds.