Tipping bullets

[Shooting Kiwi]

I'm new to reloading and am receiving contradictory and inconsistent advice - so I thought I'd ask for more!

I'm loading Lapua .38 Special cases with Lapua 148Gr HBWC, experimenting with loads between 2.5Gr and 3.1Gr Winchester Super Target powder. I've been assured that 2.9Gr works very well. The gun is a S&W model 19, .357 Magnum, 6" barrel, Morini anatomical grip, in good condition, my gunsmith tells me.

Shot with a hand rest, the gun will put all shots well within the 10 ring, although I haven't tested all powder loads. Hand held (single-handed), with no rest, I can't get a tight group, although most will be in the black, but the main puzzle is that perhaps 20% of shots are fliers (some even off the target), with clear evidence of the bullet tipping. Accuracy seems better at the lower end of the load range.

I'm new to revolvers, but am not too bad with standard pistols, so am reluctant to think that all the problem is me.

So the questions are:

Is this load range sensible?

Is it likely to be an equipment or operator problem - or both?

What am I doing to cause bullet instability?

Why is bullet instability sporadic?

[Spencer]

...Is this load range sensible?

over to those familiar with this powder

...Is it likely to be an equipment or operator problem - or both?

Unlikely to be an operator problem (though I can remember shooters who claimed to be able to 'make' a topple on demand).
Though the difference between rested and hand-held grouping size suggests a problem exists. If the problem is getting worse it would be interesting to know what results are obtained if you go back to the rest testing.

...What am I doing to cause bullet instability?

one or more of:
- undersized projectiles
- leading
- crowning imperfection
- understabilisation
- damaged base of projectile
- air pocket in projectile (imbalance)
- irregular crimp pressure on projectile
Is it occuring with any particular chamber/s?

...Is this load range sensible?

again, over to those familiar with this powder

...Why is bullet instability sporadic?

see variables above

Spencer

[solomon grundy]

Too hot of a charge behind a HBWC can split the bullet's skirt causing the bullet to tumble. I'm not familiar w/ Super Target, but suggest that you actually look-up the data for this load, including the recommended OAL. Powder formulations change over time - 3.1gr may be too hot for the current formulation.

Be aware that the HBWC skirt can actually detach and become stuck in the bore if your load is too hot.

Beyond that I don't think that the mechanical accuracy of your revolver should change between off-hand and supported unless you're compensating for a mechanical problem when resting the gun - e.g. the crane is misaligned, but you're somehow realigning it using the rest.

[Gort]

I have shot close to 100,000 rounds of .38 wadcutter, all with WST powder. For 25 yards or less I load 2.1 gr. WST, for 50 yard it's 3.0 of WST. Great powder and great loads. I shoot Star and Hornady 148 HBWC, Federal Primers. As to the problem of skirt yaw, your S&W has a factory twist of 18 3/8 ", I shoot custom barrels in a one in 14 twist. Having said that, the yaw you have noticed, usally does not disrupt groups much. A faster twist barrel or a shorter bullet, ( not hollow base 148 WC ) should midigate the yaw to some extent. There is referance to this in Gil Hebards, Pistol Shooters Treasury ( great book
and cheap).
Gort

[2650 plus]

Please take a close look at your best shots. Do they also show the telltale evidence of slightly oblong holes in the 50 yard targets. The yaw I am describing occurs about the common center of the projectile and does not seem to contribute to inaccurecy. I also tested with a really good pistol rest and altho the group was liss than 1/14 in there were still bullets going through the target and leaving the tell tale oblong entry hole in the target. Unless you are certain there is a degradation of accuracy you might want to do what I did. Ignore the elongated holes in the target and shoot lots of tens. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[Shooting Kiwi]

Thanks folks.

I'll experiment with 2.1Gr. I'm shooting at 25metres.

Bill: only the fliers seem to be tipping.

Gort: interesting about the barrel twist: I presume that the pistol wasn't really designed for this projectile, however, I believe it is a combination that has been shown to work well.

I would hope that the projectiles were blameless, but I can't have the same faith in my reloading, although I'm as careful as I know how, and the rounds look good to local experts.

One local expert (ex-champion revolver shot) is firmly of the opinion that it's operator error, probably flinching. I readily believe that I might be the problem, but, given the amount and rapidity of muzzle movement whilst the bullet is going down the barrel, would a little added flinch make enough difference to upset a bullet as it exits?

[solomon grundy]

keyholing by human error seems unlikely to me. How would you do this - by upsetting the bullet as it leaves the muzzle?!?!


Have you tried other wadcutter types, besides a hollow base?

[Shooting Kiwi]

Bill,

Correction to previous post.

Looking carefully at another target, which I rescued from the trash, it seems that the 10s and 9s indeed show evidence of slight tipping, and, for everything else, the amount of tip seems to be in proportion to the distance from the bull.

[Shooting Kiwi]

Update: down to 2.2Gr - much better! However, still a slight evidence of tipping. Does this suggest that barrel and projectile really don't suit each other?

[Gort]

Kiwi,
Some tipping seems to be endemic to the 148 gr. HBWC. As I stated before it does not affect grouping much. I have had rested ten shot groups under 1 1/2 " at 50 yards, that show evidence of tipping. Just shoot and don't be too concerned with tipping.
Gort

PS: Pick up a copy of Gil Hebard's, Pistol Shooting Treasury. Their is a talk about tipping in a extensive test on the S&W M52

[GOVTMODEL]

I'm new to reloading and am receiving contradictory and inconsistent advice - so I thought I'd ask for more!

I'm loading Lapua .38 Special cases with Lapua 148Gr HBWC, experimenting with loads between 2.5Gr and 3.1Gr Winchester Super Target powder. I've been assured that 2.9Gr works very well. The gun is a S&W model 19, .357 Magnum, 6" barrel, Morini anatomical grip, in good condition, my gunsmith tells me.

Shot with a hand rest, the gun will put all shots well within the 10 ring, although I haven't tested all powder loads. Hand held (single-handed), with no rest, I can't get a tight group, although most will be in the black, but the main puzzle is that perhaps 20% of shots are fliers (some even off the target), with clear evidence of the bullet tipping. Accuracy seems better at the lower end of the load range.

I'm new to revolvers, but am not too bad with standard pistols, so am reluctant to think that all the problem is me.

So the questions are:

Is this load range sensible?

Is it likely to be an equipment or operator problem - or both?

What am I doing to cause bullet instability?

Why is bullet instability sporadic?

The yaw of HBWC bullets is well documented- don't worry about that. If your groups are good from a rest but not by hand...well, it's not the gun.

The only thing I ever got improved accuracy from when shooting .38 loads in a .357 revolver was to use .357 brass.

A faster twist barrel might improve accuracy a bit, but you're already getting ten-ring groups, so it's probably a marginal improvement.

YMMV-

Richard

[Shooting Kiwi]

Thanks everyone.

I'm now pretty convinced that the major problem is me. No surprise really. Presumably I'm not providing a consistent reaction to the recoil, and so the problem is worse with heavier loads. As familiarity with the revolver increases, the results are improving. Last time, all shots within the 8 ring, which is quite an improvement from complete misses! I'm working on technique...

[Misny]

Like many have said, tipping is pretty much normal in .38 SPL 148 grain hollow base wadcutters. I've fired my share of factory .38 SPL match wadcutter through both revolvers and a S&W model 52. Tipping was a usual occurrence. I would add a little wrinkle. I was getting tipped bullets out of my used Smith & Wesson .22 LR revolver at 50 ft and greater distances. I thought the worse, that maybe my barrel was bad or the crown. A thorough cleaning of the barrel eliminated the tipping, so maybe a good barrel cleaning will help you too.

[Shooting Kiwi]

Update,

Well, perhaps the problem wasn't me.

Having run out of Lapua projectiles, which are no longer available here, in true Kiwi style, we made our own! Actually, a bloke fired up his now rarely-used hydraulic swaging machine, and he and I ran off 1,000 HBWC.

The new bullets have the same mass and major dimensions as the Lapua, but with different lubricant-retaining knurling. Same range of loads used as with Lapua. These projectiles have proved themselves in competition in the past here in NZ.

Off to the range, expecting indifferent results, as before, but... no tipping! No fliers. In my hand, as accurate as my .22 pistols. I don't think the radical improvement is due to the shooter.

Why should Lapua projectiles be so bad in my Smith? Why should these be so much better? What's going on? This shooting's mysterious!

[melchloboo]

Let me throw a few things out there:

1. Try different diameter hbwc if you can find them.
2. Check to make sure your flare is sufficient at the mouth of the case when seating, and that you are not shaving the base/skirt on the way in due to insufficient flare. Not too much, or your cases will quickly crack.
3. In some of my revolvers I find that RN bullets from a local caster work just as well as the wadcutters, if not better. Holes not as pretty, but so what.

[melchloboo]

Update,
Why should Lapua projectiles be so bad in my Smith? Why should these be so much better? What's going on? This shooting's mysterious!

Can also be the alloy...you may want to get a lead hardness tester and see if maybe that is the difference.

[Spencer]

The Lapua HBWC are soft lead (at least for the few remaining in my stock) and will be 'sized down' if:
- the inside sizing die is a bit small in diameter and/or
- the casing wall is a bit thick (e.g. newer PMC brass) and/or
- the inside sizing die does not size the inside of the case far enough down.
Any of these will give an undersized projectile...

Spencer

[Rover]

Just to confuse things further...I have noticed that some S&Ws have a "choke" at the rear of the barrel from being tightly screwed into the frame. This must be lapped out, though a HBWC probably expands to fit once past there.

I also had the same problem with a revolver (good rest groups, occasional bad flyer, usually at 7 o'clock) and it turned out to be me. It did drive me nuts for a while, though.

[TonyT]

I have used 2.7 gr. og WST or 2.8 gr. Bullseye in either a S&W revolver or the S&W Model 52. Both loads are very accurate but you do see some sign of bullet yaw from the Model 52. I have not seen it with my revolvers.

[R.M.]

I wonder if it has to do with the combination of HBWC in 38 brass in a 357 chamber, in a revolver with a forcing cone. Is the skirt blowing out then being swagged back down as it goes through the cylinder mouth, the the forcing cone. It might have been the Lapua design. Have you tried DEWC bullets?