Grip mod rules question

Walter · Post by **Walter** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:04 pm

Is this grip mod to the top of the grip legal?

8.16.0 says "The grip must not encircle the hand. Curved surfaces on the grips or frame, including the heel and/or thumb rest, in the longitudinal direction of the pistol are permitted."

Seems to me it may not be legal.

ausdiver99 · Post by **ausdiver99** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:43 pm

See the attached diagram from the Australian National Referees Association website, http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/nrc_pa/default.htm.

While overall, the ends of the grip appear to begin and end at the same level indicating 90 degrees from the vertical axis of the grip there is clearly an upward and a downward curve see rule 8.16.0 note a.

Hopefully Spencer will favour us with his experience.

Spencer · Post by **Spencer** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:39 am

Walter wrote:Is this grip mod to the top of the grip legal?

On the basis of the photo, no.
Spencer

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:42 am

Not legal.

ausdiver99 · Post by **ausdiver99** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:43 am

Spencer, that was quick!

Walter · Post by **Walter** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:21 am

Thank you Spencer.

Now, on the basis of the above diagram, why would this un-modified Rink grip be legal if the angle is slanting downward?

JamesH · Post by **JamesH** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:29 am

I'd day both are illegal

Spencer · Post by **Spencer** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:52 am

Walter wrote:Now, on the basis of the above diagram, why would this un-modified Rink grip be legal if the angle is slanting downward?

A definite maybe...
this looks as if there would be 'downward curvature' in most shooters' hands on the right side, and should draw attention from an effective Equipment Control officer and/or competitions on the range.
For a shooter who holds the pistol off-centre (in this case, hand rotated anti-clockwise when viewed from above) the grip could be OK
A definite maybe...
Further, the part of the grip not in the photo may be shaped such that the griffachse does not correspond to the line of the laminations
A definite maybe...

Spencer

Walter · Post by **Walter** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:35 am

The griffachse does correspond to the lines of lamination.

Most Rink grips that I have seen, have this downward curve of the grip, therefore I assume that most Rink grips are in fact illegal by the standards of the rules.

Unless I am mistaken (which I very well may be), years ago the rules had the curvature specified in millimeters of the downward slope. If I remember correctly it was 5mm?.

The rules plainly state that there should be NO slant to the grip in relation to the griffachse.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:02 am

Walter wrote:Unless I am mistaken (which I very well may be), years ago the rules had the curvature specified in millimeters of the downward slope. If I remember correctly it was 5mm?.

Not as far as I can remember (may be before my time) and certainly not in the last 15 years. I'm afraid my rule books before 1993 have gone walkabout.

Walter wrote:The rules plainly state that there should be NO slant to the grip in relation to the griffachse.

No downward slant in relation to the part of the grip we are discussing. Upward slants in that area are OK.

Joe58 · Post by **Joe58** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:33 am

Pardon my ignorant question....so am I to assume then that Rink grips are not legal for ISSF competition?

Or if I order a set to be made, I just need to make sure to specify I need them to be ISSF compliant?

Don't want to hijack the thread it is just that I am considering ordering some for my FWB 103.

Thank you very much...Joe

Joe58 · Post by **Joe58** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:33 am

Double post...sorry.

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:37 am

Joe58 wrote:Pardon my ignorant question....so am I to assume then that Rink grips are not legal for ISSF competition?

Or if I order a set to be made, I just need to make sure to specify I need them to be ISSF compliant?

Don't want to hijack the thread it is just that I am considering ordering some for my FWB 103.

Thank you very much...Joe

It is quite possible that odd bits of the grip could be outside the rules, especially when the rules change and grips could well be 3 or 4 years old. As always, the ownus is on you, the shooter, to check they are within the rules. Otherwise a friendly equipment control officer may ask you to do some woodworking.

Rob.

Tycho · Post by **Tycho** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:17 am

Just checked my factory Rinks (the one in the picture looks like a custom job) and all of them are pretty much horizontal in the part above the hand. So don't start any rumours. Every gripmaker worth his salt knows the rules and will stick to them, but of course the customer (and his ideas of what is allowed) will always come first... AFAIK the current book doesn't contain any 5mm rule, it's simply that no downward curvature is allowed. On the other hand, I've rarely seen the point discussed in equipment control except in obvious cases. And the Rink grip pictured is IMHO very far from obvious (unlike the one at the beginning of the thread) - the left side is ok anyway, and the right side does not show any downward turn, it's just that the point where the upward turn begins is somewhat right of the middle, and the interpretation of "middle" depends on a lot of things.

PS: The rear sight does not automatically define the horizontal - check out any FWB P44, or Morini CM80, or some other custom jobs...

Walter · Post by **Walter** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:03 pm

Tycho wrote:Just checked my factory Rinks (the one in the picture looks like a custom job) and all of them are pretty much horizontal in the part above the hand. So don't start any rumours.

The first picture is a modified Morini. The second is an un-modified non-custom Aw93 grip from Rink.
Look at the images on the rink site to see that most of them are curved downward on the opposite side of the thumb. It's not a rumour. saying it is a rumor is a rude accusation. You need to pay attention.

Check for instance, the Walther GSPs on the rink site. http://www.pistol-grips.net/

My concern is whether the rules would be applied only to someone who modified a grip to the same angles as the Rink.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:11 am

Walter wrote:My concern is whether the rules would be applied only to someone who modified a grip to the same angles as the Rink.

It doesn't matter whether they are factory grips or home made, the same rules apply to everyone.

A few years ago several Morini 162EIs were failing because of a downward curve. Mine would have failed had I not known the rules and modified it before my first competition.

It is the shooter's responsibility to ensure that their equipment complies with the rules. If your grip fails at equipment control, blame yourself first. You can then complain to the manufacturer. Don't complain to the equipment control staff if they have applied the rules correctly; they are the ones who did their job right.

jipe · Post by **jipe** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:22 am

I have a Morini CM22M RF Rink grip made in April 2008, so a newly designed grip (its specific for the new CM22M RF and doesn't fit on the normal CM22M), not an old one, that shows exactly the same shape as on the showed picture:

I was already wondering if this grip is legal. On the ISSF rule, the straigth and concave line cases are shown and judged illegal.

The convex line case as on the Rink grip is not shown, it is unclear for me if this is also illegal.

The rule says 90 degree but for a curved line, what does 90 degree mean ? If it is the angle of the tangent to the curve, then the angle of the tangent to the convex shape of Rink is at 90 degree and is legal while the angle to the tangent to the concave shape showed on the ISSF rule is indeed illegal.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:33 am

jipe wrote:The convex line case as on the Rink grip is not shown, it is unclear for me if this is also illegal.

Unless you hold the gun in a very unusual way I would say that your grip is illegal.

It really depends on how you define the exact position of the "Griffachse". That needs to be the lowest part.

Tycho · Post by **Tycho** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:14 am

I'm not accusing anyone, but if you want to play that role, go ahead, it's your day. All the Rink grips I have or have seen in my club are pretty much horizontal, and most Rink grips on the website are shown from the front, so it's impossible to judge or to do any statistics based on that. If you happen to have the whole sortiment at home, feel free to publish the stats. If not, talking of "most" is IMV a rumour. It's well known that nobody is perfect - as said, Morini had some problems, Hammerli had some problems with the palm shelf on their SP20 grips, (which tend to turn upwards when the screw is tightened) and probably everybody else had their interesting turns at eq. check. So, IMHO, the philosophy behind the rule is pretty clear, it's the shooters responsibility, and the rest is up to the judges.

jipe · Post by **jipe** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:53 pm

Below, two pictures of three standard Rink grips, from left to right:
- Morini CM22M RF, made in April 2008
- Anschutz LP@ ligth, made in June 2007
- Steyr LP10, made in January 2008

According to you, are these three recent Rink grips legal ?

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Grip mod rules question

Grip mod rules question

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Are the three following Rink grips legal ?