TargetTalk

I've had a search around but couldn't find this topic covered elsewhere.

I have been shooting air pistol for about one year and have reached a level of stability and body awareness that reveals my pulse as a vertical bounce during my hold.

I have heard mention of shooters learning to shoot between their heartbeats and have heard of a shooter that can unintentionally delay his heartbeat until after the shot is released.

Although I have started trying to do this myself (by counting heartbeats and releasing after the count) I am wary of getting into a habit of consciously releasing the shot.

Has anybody got any tips on how to achieve this?

Cheers
WR

I've never heard of anyone shooting between heart beats with a pistol. I used to do it with my smallbore rifle with 20x scope where I could actually see the crosshairs moving. Rifle shooters pick up heart beat from the sling and can build a tolerance to the sling to transmit less. If you can see the heart beat with a pistol, I would think you need to change your position.
Counting will lead to yanking the trigger.
How much are your sights actually moving and what is the pattern?

Ben

Thanks for your feedback Ben. I'll have a think about your suggestions but in the meantime, here is my off the cuff response and a little more detail.

If I shoot on a heartbeat and it pushes the shots, they will end up centred on the eight ring at 12 o'clock. I can shot 10 - 12 shots without my shots being affected but invariably I lose focus and the next shots will be high.

The sight movement varies between 0 and 1mm over and above my normal hold pattern. (it appears quite significant when I'm behind the sights!) It is strongest when I am very relaxed, after I have got into my rhythm. If I overcome this (and I'm not sure how I am overcoming it...) I have the smallest groups and best shots.

I am aware of the bounce about 75% of the time and can overcome it about 50% of the time.

This has only been a consistent and noticable phenomenon within the last month although it has happened infrequently before this.

I am not aware of any change in stance. I stand at 45 degrees to the firing line - which I much prefer over a more open stance. I have had this stance for about 9 months.

I shoot a Morini 162EI in the junior model with extended sights. I scarcely notice this with my Morini RF which has a much smaller sight radius, but I am reluctant to reduce the sight radius for air.

WR

I should also mention that I read about a shooter's blood volume and heart strength having a potential effect on their shooting - although this was more in connection with smallbore rifle.

I am reasonably fit - but I sincerely doubt that I am at a level of fitness associated with a much increased blood volume or super-sized heart muscle!

My pulse has always been apparent to me, even at resting - so this is something entirely consistent with my physiology. The annoying thing is that I can now SEE it as well as feel it!

Well what our talking about between heartbeats has lots more to do with rifle shooting as the but rest on your chest wall. With pistol shooting there's lots of bones muscles, ligaments, tendons and fat between your heart and your pistol, which would tend to dampen that out.

What is your heart rate both resting and while shooting? I'm pretty certain that the vast majority of pistol shooters heart rate is great than 60 bpm, this would only give them one second to activate the trigger. If your heart rate is greater 40 or so and you are trying to shoot between those heart beats you are most likely snatching the trigger and causing the error and attributing it to your heart beat.

If the sights really are moving around as much as you say you really have very little to loose by shortening the sight radius.

Other shooters are trying to delicately tip toe around the subject but I will "cowboy up" and hit it head on:

It is somewhat umm "unlikely" that you are actually seeing your heartbeat during off hand, ISSF, precision pistol shooting.

I can proveide a *lot* more detail if you want- send me a PM or email at leslieswartz@verizon.net.

I'm not saying you are misrepresenting anything; just that you might be misinterpreting something perhaps?

Please contact me off-line.

Richard H wrote: more to do with rifle shooting as the but rest on your chest wall. With pistol shooting there's lots of bones muscles, ligaments, tendons and fat between your heart and your pistol, which would tend to dampen that out.

Pulse is transmitted through sling in rifle, not from chest wall; from your arm, which is attached to your hand, which is generally attached to your pistol.

Ankle Nibbling God of ISSF Wisdom wrote:
It is somewhat umm "unlikely" that you are actually seeing your heartbeat during off hand, ISSF, precision pistol shooting.

I disagree. On rare occasions, in infrequent sessions, I'll have a hold that is completely and utterly still for a couple of seconds. In that time I occasionally see a rhythmic, consistent bump such as white rabbit is describing. Front sight goes from my 5-ring hold and bumps just to the bottom of the black.

Is it the pulse being transmitted through the meat of my hand? I doubt it. Is the pulse in my wrist or arm stimulating a muscle, ligament, or tendon and getting a mild response? I don't know. I do know that it's consistent in frequency, amplitude, and effect, and therefore is probably not the random noise in my hold.

White Rabbit:

I apologize if my first post seemed somewhat confrontational. Since I have often learned the most when I challenged my own ideas and beliefs ("The unexamined life . . ." and all that), I took my training sessions yesterday and today and invested them in checking out what you suggest.

So I'm looking for my heartbeat. Using my various instrumentation etc. I come up with the following initial observations:

- If you begin looking for your heartbeat, sure enough, you just might see it! However

- When sync'd with a microphone of your actual heartbeat, often the "heartbeat" you see is not your actual heartbeat but apparently something else! (hmmm)

- When resting the arm on a hard surface and sighting against a neutral surface, you can pick up a strong "true" brachial heartbeat in the front sight.

- When standing off-hand, the brachial pulse goes away but you can detect a rythm to the wobble with the naked eye; however

- When checked against the Rika trace the rythmic pattern disappears . . . Rika is measuring muzzle trace and the rythmic wobble is visible in the front sight, so . . . ?


What can we conclude from this? Well, I for one have to back off what I said earlier. There may actually be something to the "heartbeat in front sight" phenomenon. I'm just not sure yet what it actually is though- when checked against Rika and actual heartbeat the pattern falls apart.

I will have to go back to "The Bible" (Yur'Yev) and some other sports med references to look into this further.

Thanks for the interesting puzzle!

**What exactly is it that you are seeing?**

thanks

Anonymous and Sarcasstic Guest:

Same question- what is it *exactly* that you are seeing in this "rythmic pattern?"

Possible explanations could include natural "load shifting" of fibers in deltoid muscles . . . cycling of neuromuscular feedback . . . also, the heart beat and cycling of arterial pressure through brachial artery in armpit/inner bicep . . . others?

What is the most likely explanation?

I never did see the rythm synch up with heartbeat. Not slower, not faster, just different pattern . . .

As I sat reading this thread, left hand on my leg, I could feel my hand slightly throbbing from my pulse. I sometimes suffer from a debilitating skin condition on both hands, and at those times I am painfully aware of the pulse in my hands.

If I had a death grip on my pistol I probably wouldn't notice the pulse. With a very loose grip is it possible that the pulse actually moves the pistol a little?

Tom:

Yes- also an alternative explanation; as well as the arterial movement through the elbow and wrist joints which provide (relatively speaking) a constricted channel.

Yeah I pretty much zigged on this one- I think I need to do some more homework.

Maybve I never noticed the heartbeat effect because 1) my hold sucks and/or 2) I was concentrating on other stuff.

Probably both.

I had noticed my pulse in my hold a few years ago, but just accepted it as part of my hold. I only notice it when I look for it . If you are doing what you are supposed to be doing (allowing the shot or accepting the hold) I don't think it is much of a factor. However a lower heart beat should help, (physical fittness!) Daryl does run daily, but did anyone notice Jasons gut.Got to go walk the dog now.

Brooks

When I was younger and super-fit I used to be able to see my heartbeat in my foresight - or so I thought.

Thankfully my eyesight and fitness have since deteriorated so its no longer a distraction.

I must admit I've never spotted my sights moving in line with my heartbeat and I struggle to see how the mechanics of it could work. You'll have very little (or no) direct contact between the grip and the hand (or wrist) where your brachial artery is. Which leaves us with the shoulder and elbow joints, and associated musculature. Again I can't fathom out how any of that would affect pistol holding and 'hold' (?)

Rob.

I cannot say that I have ever noticed my sights moving as a result of my heartbeat.

As my best shooting (CF & StP) was done with a pulse rate between 90 & 95 it would have been difficult to shoot between the beats.

Tim Conrad at the OTC has done extensive testing of the rifle shooters and biathletes at the Center with a specialized laser device and trigger pull recorder connected with a pulse sensor and his conclusions are that the rifle is fired on the heartbeat, actually it is the pulse that finally breaks the shot on sensitive rifle triggers.

You should not attempt to shoot between anything....you should concentrate on a perfectly aligned sight picture, and start the trigger press with the shot release being a surprise to some extent. Attempting to "shoot between" anything, or "on anything" causes concious firing.....which results in poor shots that cannot be called with any accuracy.....and is a bad habit, not worth acquiring.

This is a really interesting discussion. I cannot recall seing any relationship between heart beat and movement with a pistol. I do see a destinct movement with the high power rifle any sight 1000 yard matches and found that I could shoot between heart beats fairly consistantly. Now back to the free pistol. I just applied a very light but steadily increasing pressure until the shot broke. My high right shots were always the result of anticipating the shot usually caused by a concentration break after holding too long. Wish I could be of more assistance. We might encourage in put from FP570 as perhaps he can provide more insight. Steve is the main guy with the enquiring mind and will also be a resource we can count on. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Just throwing in my two pence.

Tried to compare my heart rate with my air pistol front sight to see if there is anything in this. Used my Scatt system and compared it to my previous traces. What i noticed is that when i was looking for imbalance it appeared.

Can't help but wonder if worrying about your heart rate is creating a self fulfilling prophecy.

Thinking back to some work i did on my MSc with archers we discovered that tight intercostal muscles were concomitant with a shifting Iris but not heart rate.

Will be interested to see what anyone else finds out.

Shawn Purslow