TargetTalk

So I have always had groups much wider than tall. I have begun experimenting with my grip by keeping a completely relaxed thumb no longer in contact with the grip. It seems to be helping to make my groups smaller. Any comments?

edster99 wrote:keeping a completely relaxed thumb no longer in contact with the grip.

If you put your thumb away from grip.... is not relaxed, is forced to go away...

well i have been invetiagting this... if i have the thumb on the shelf, it is definitely not relaxed, as my end joint bends at 90 degrees when relaxed. I have got it 'hanging off the side' at the moment. I'm not pulling it away from the grip

Then maybe your grip needs to be fitted better.

Just let it sit there, its not supposed to apply any pressure. All the gripping force should be through the middle, ring and index finger...applied in a rearward manner, and only enough to stabilise the pistol.

Hard to diagnose from thousands of miles a way but don't rule out loss of focus on alignment.

Well and trigger control for that matter.

How does this "well i have been invetiagting this... if i have the thumb on the shelf, it is definitely not relaxed, as my end joint bends at 90 degrees when relaxed. I have got it 'hanging off the side' at the moment. I'm not pulling it away from the grip"

Translate in to this "but don't rule out loss of focus on alignment.
Well and trigger control for that matter."

Did I miss something?

If one can't relax their thumb on the grip what would trigger control or lack of focus have to do with being able to grip your pistol with your thumb in a relaxed position?

If your talking about his group being somewhere other than where he thinks it should be I agree it almost impossible to tell over the internet what's wrong and those things that you list are things that should be looked at as well as a many other things.

Or we can just try the other advice "hold the pistol still" ;P

Comments? Yes, you're100% right!

Whether you thumb's relaxed, or tense, or up your ar*e, it doesn't really matter, as long as it's consistent. It seems that it's easiest to have it consistently not affecting the gun by having it relaxed and applying the lightest possible pressure. Some have suggested amputation. I hope they are joking. Others advocate inserting a sharp pin into the thumb shelf so you get feedback if thumb pressure goes up. My own experience is of a constant fight to keep the stupid thing from tensing up. I also fight to keep my little finger from joining in the fun. as soon as it starts applying pressure, the group spreads verically.

Richard - a better fitting grip would be an inherently good thing, for sure. At the moment the centre line of my fingers line up down the middle of the grip, the natural elevation is about 5deg above horizontal, but my thumb pokes out sideways just enough to miss the shelf. It makes a bit of a V with the trigger finger, and if its straight it puts tension in the forearm (not so much the hand). As for hold it stiller - well, I try... :)

DeadEyeDick - my thumb's natural 'just sitting there' is as above

Steve - ?

Kiwi - you're on my wavelength in terms of 'keep it consistent' - i'm thinking along the lines of 'no contact is 100% consistent; and it is more comfortable / more relaxed overall'.

Is there any dogma out there on what your thumb is supposed to do? When I used to do archery the idea was to keep the hand completely relaxed and not grip at all - when the arrow was released the hand strap would stop the bow falling to the floor. That stopped you gripping and then twisting, torquing, etc etc as the release occurred. Does any of that thinking apply?

cheers

Ed

All:

Just doing the "step 0 of diagnostics" drill.

The observed phenomenon was "Groups wider than they are tall."

What can cause this? How was everything else ruled out?

Just a little "step back for a minute" suggestion, that's all.

With no other information beyond out-of-round shot pattern . . . ?

I'm not trying to start a fight here or even sy it *isn't* necessarily a grip and/or thumb problem.

Just trying to provide food for thought, sorry. I'll go away now.

My opinion for what it is worth in these circles. The thumb should definitely not push hard on any shot to shove the gun around. But if it has a roll in alignment ans firmness, go with it as long as it does not distract. Do a holding drill with different thumb involvements, from none to something less than bad influence. I find if I push forward with my thumbs butt, I have a better base for the front gripping fingers to pull into and a base for my triggerfinger to squeeze into. And it all but eliminates the thumbs side from pushing into the side of the gun. Not to mention recoil management.

Ed, yes, the dogma is that the thumb should be relaxed and in a comfortable position on the thumb shelf, making light contact with it.

It's not just the thumb's end that's important: perhaps more important is the thenar eminence - the fleshy, mobile part of the palm at the base of the thumb, which is stuffed full of thumb-moving muscles. This must remain consistent, not only in shape, but also in resilience. This is easiest if it's relaxed. Sticking your thumb out sideways, so as to avoid contact with the thumb shelf probably isn't easy to do consistently - you might get the position consistent, but not so easily the muscle tensions.

It's far harder to avoid gripping with the thumb if the shape of the grip isn't right. (I'm assuming anatomical grips here). A well-fitting grip feels wonderfully secure, and the subconscious desire to grip with the thumb to control the recoil can be overcome

I like the pin in the grip idea (although I haven't (yet) resorted to it, myself) - you get real feedback of (unwanted) thumb pressure. As far as I know, it's legal.

(Oops, sorry, double post. Can you completely remove a post by editing?)

well shooting tonight it felt nice, but the end results were shocking... so i am reconsidering!

Steve Swartz wrote:All:

Just doing the "step 0 of diagnostics" drill.

The observed phenomenon was "Groups wider than they are tall."

What can cause this? How was everything else ruled out?

Just a little "step back for a minute" suggestion, that's all.

With no other information beyond out-of-round shot pattern . . . ?

I'm not trying to start a fight here or even sy it *isn't* necessarily a grip and/or thumb problem.

Just trying to provide food for thought, sorry. I'll go away now.

Don't go away Steve, my question was serious, as to what you were getting at. Your posts are always some food for thought and debate.

Thumb pressure is the most serious problem I am trying to overcome. Any thumb pressure locks up my trigger finger!

OzzieM

Not sure if I understand the original problem correctly... it almost sounds like the grip is too large and once your "front" fingers are in the right place, then the thumb isn't coming around far enough rest on shelf (because of large grip circumference)?

Perhaps you can try grips in other [smaller] sizes...

Posting a pic (from top) could help with "diagnosis" :-)
Not that I'll be able to, but some of the more knowledgeable members might

interesting observation - i may well send one up later. thanks