TargetTalk

The Walter SSPs popularity is growing slowly (steadily).
I have started to consider one. As an accessory to, or replacement for, my reputed MG2.

Some jam-issues reported the first year (of infancy..). Some jams adressed to the magazines, or more specifically to the stacking of the. rounds in same.

Pros and cons of the SSP?

Pro: Adjustability of weight. "Basic" model light. A multitude of weights may be added as desired.

Con: dry-firing demands plasticks plug(s).
Con: reported difficulties related to achieving a crisp trigger pull. If the sear engagement is set too short, you may experience a .22 "burp-gun". Full auto, that si.

Pro: relatively comfortable grip, gripsurface unusual, but cool.

Con: allen wrenches for adjusting sight settings. I fancy fingertip-adjustable knobs.
- - -
Please add mor cons and pros from your own firing experiences.

I have considered buying one and tested it... before buying a CM22M RF.

Some more pros and cons:
+ grip: two types available, the pro-touch but also classic laminated wood. Available without grip to adapt a Rink grip.
+ angled grip position, similar to modern AP, (if you do not like it, Rink has two types of grips, standard/factory angle and more vertical)
+ little muzzle jump even without additional weight, soft and stable shooting.
- seems still ammunition sensitive (still jam issues)
- some magazine problems (magazine sometimes blocked in the pistol, easy to put the rounds in a wrong way)
- trigger and sights getting loose, must often be re-adjusted

So, if compared to a Morini CM22 RF??

Adjustable grip
Light
Adding weight possible
Trigger better?
Sights better!
Less muzzle jump?
No feeding problem?
Money left in wallet!

Right or wrong?

Kent

Reinhamre wrote:So, if compared to a Morini CM22 RF??

Adjustable grip: both have adjustable grips, rake is similar, both can be bought without grip, Rink grip available for both. CM22M RF is lower in the hand, probably one of the lowest pistol on the market.
Light: CM22M RF weights less (if you do not put additional weights, you can even remove the weigths mounting rail to even reduce its weight). Currently I use two additional weights on my CM22M RF.
Adding weight possible: possible on both. There is a special weight available for the SSP with a moving mass inside. I cannot tell whats the benefit of it since I couldn't try it. Such a this doesn't exists for the CM22M RF.
Trigger better?: I like the trigger of the CM22M RF, it is very good. I think that it is better than the one of the SSP.
Sights better! : more of less the same. Both need a tool to adjust, no manual adjustment without tools like on the Pardini.
Less muzzle jump? : both have little muzzle jump. Both are stabke with soft recoil.
No feeding problem?: I tried several ammunitions with the CM22M RF (SK pistol match, SK standard+, RWS pistol match, CCI standard new dark blue box, Magtech standard) and didn't experience problems even with the CCI standard that are hard to push in the chamber (these seem to be slightly bigger than the others, it is exactly the same in my Hammerli 160)
Money left in wallet! : yes, the CM22M RF, delivered with the rail and additional weights, costs about 200Euros less than the standard SSP kit (the one without the weights) and about 500Euros less than the luxury SSP kit.

Right or wrong?

Kent

Additionally, I would mention that the CM22M RF is a very simple design, with only one bold to remove to dismount it (+ one bold for the grip).

Now, I must also say that owning a CM22M RF and not owning an SSP, my experience with the SSP is much more limited than with the CM22M RF.

Maybe (0 * electronic trigger + 0 * dry fire) = harder to train for RF?

MG2inAus wrote:Maybe (0 * electronic trigger + 0 * dry fire) = harder to train for RF?

Neither the Walther SSP nor the Morini CM22 RF is offered with an El-option.
Hence, I admit, I do not understand your post.

MG2inAus wrote:Maybe (0 * electronic trigger + 0 * dry fire) = harder to train for RF?

The question was to compare the SSP and CM22M RF.

None of them has an electronic trigger and none of them has a dry fire possibility => on these two points, they are comparable.

Now about the benefit of those two:
- dry fire: having it is a clear advantage
- electronic trigger: besides the dryfire possibility offered by most electronic triggers, this is not a benefit of it own. What is important is the quality of the trigger. On this point the trigger of the CM22M RF is very good and fits very well for RF.

Last remark: these two pistols fits for RF but also for standard pistol.

Firstly, I admit I am not an expert and I have not shot all there is in this particular type, nor achieved top rankings (yet- I hope).

I have however a range of shooting experiences over the years, and more importantly to this subject, have recently bought a new SSP. Having read all there is within TargetTalk about this subject, here are my thoughts and suggestions.

The Walther SSP has unusual design features in that there are a few assumptions that shooters make based on previous experiences. When a passing-look is taken of the SSP, these unusual features can lead to confusion and an initial dislike of the SSP, one that I suggest is not often re-examined or analysed in-depth. But as a context, when the first automatic submachine guns with all their new features and characteristics were released way-back-when, I’m sure the powers that be didn’t say ‘here you go boys, figure it out yourselves and knock yourselves out’. There would have been studies, manuals, training and practice.

I suggest some training can overcome these unusual characteristics of the SSP, however I criticise Walther for not effectively providing this information when they knew there were issues. I know that there is manufacturer’s advice out there, but any information must be provided with the equipment (not just on the internet). Also, some of the advice is basic and is not comprehensive in explaining the issue, such as the online advice note on the magazine issue leaves the reader open to varied interpretations. Furthermore, some of the more in-depth information, such as the online schematic drawing or the online info-sheet on how to strip, clean and problem-shoot this complex beast, is only in German.

The magazine is an open-breach loading type, which is definitely unusual, but by no means is it unique or a defective design. I imagine that this design relates to the adjustable hand grip, which is after all a good thing. And what a grip it is too!

The magazine also has a design fault, in that it is easy for the average shooter to load the magazine incorrectly which may result in a jammed misfeed. This is because the magazine is a double-stacker (i.e. the rounds are staggered left-right-left-right-etc up to the opening). If you load the magazine horizontally and/or use too much of the compress-spring button (tumbling and/or dropping the rounds in), then the magazine may be loaded as per a single-stacker (i.e. the rounds are not staggered, or left-left-left-etc). Consequently some rounds may have a nose-down aspect, and when the breach is closed, can shove the round in the wrong place and jam the pistol.

The solution is a choice of the following tried techniques- load the magazine on an angle (which is natural when using two hands), use the spring button with moderation (which is easier on the thumb), look into the viewing window to ensure a stagger, give a full magazine a little shake while pulling slightly on the spring button, or give the nose of the first round a slight tug (if its loose then there’s no stagger below it). Use what works for you.

Cocking the pistol is also unusual, in that there are two cocking handles (left and right) without a slide release lever, which is deliberate to ensure the action feels the same regardless of an empty magazine. The conventional long slide and slide release lever design has an advantage because it allows varied techniques to cock and close the action. However the SSP needs to be handled directly from above, precisely using thumb and forefinger only on the front portion of the handle for just cocking, or the rear portion of the handle (the bit with the locking buttons) to cock and lock the action.

Don’t get me wrong, there are other ways of doing all this, but I find that they are awkward and/or result in fingers/thumb being hit by the handle when let go. This is a bit annoying, and goes against the grain of being repeatedly trained to always let the mechanism fly forward unassisted or un-fumbled, lest a misfeed or unlocked breach, both of which wont allow the pistol to fire (but regardless I suggest the SSP is forgiving in this matter and will function correctly).

People correctly say that there is no dry-fire feature, which is a vital training technique in regards to performance. Simple solution here: get a (fresh, not old) 1-inch diameter, 0.22”-thick flat rubber washer (approximate measurements only; and the type used in household water taps), but cut the ring and insert an end in the barrel with the tail sticking-out the left hand side (the right side will interfere with the ejector but the firing pin is on the left). This prevents the firing fin or the action from having metal-on-metal contact, and is not visible when aiming. Alternatively, use the blue plastic dust plug for the same, but it will fall out if not cocking carefully.

The price on the SSP is prohibitive, there’s no doubt about that, and combined with the above issues, I think that it’s a mistake. However, I think someone from Walther (or a local sales representative) would have a real ball travelling around shooting clubs (such as here in Australia) on a little public relations exercise. Furthermore, this product will enable you to perform due to the large range of adjustments/components that can be made to suit your style (too many to talk about here), and keep going long after you end the sport.

But on that note of adjustments, this is an area that I know other SSP owners have gone astray. There are a lot of adjustments that can be made (which is a very good feature for serious competitors), but some people just don’t know when to leave a working machine be to do its thing. Furthermore the tools provided (such as an allen key with a very long shank or screwdrivers with excessive handles) allow a non-technical person to overstress fasteners and potentially damage the equipment.

In summation, I think that Walther have pulled apart the concept of a Standard Sport Pistol (SSP), refined the various components of that concept, put it back together again, and come up with a real beauty. Unfortunately, after all this effort it looks like Walther tripped just before the finish line, only to watch the competitors sail past and win the race. My suggestion to Walther is to tie your shoe laces, glue them down, get back on that ‘horse’ and win the next race. I think there’s something in that for not just the manufacturer, but also for the end users, no matter what your preference in equipment is. But, if Walther can’t emulate the standards and goals of its customers (remember that this is the top-end of the market), then how can the customers have faith in this expensive product without a little ‘step-in-the-dark’?

Having said all of this, I enjoy the SSP and look forward to the years ahead with it, in fact, after all this thought, I’m off to the range for some one-on-on time.

DiscoStu

PS- Sorry about the slang to readers without English as a first language, but it is how I think.

jipe wrote:

MG2inAus wrote:Maybe (0 * electronic trigger + 0 * dry fire) = harder to train for RF?

The question was to compare the SSP and CM22M RF.

None of them has an electronic trigger and none of them has a dry fire possibility => on these two points, they are comparable.

Now about the benefit of those two:
- dry fire: having it is a clear advantage
- electronic trigger: besides the dryfire possibility offered by most electronic triggers, this is not a benefit of it own. What is important is the quality of the trigger. On this point the trigger of the CM22M RF is very good and fits very well for RF.

Last remark: these two pistols fits for RF but also for standard pistol.

Jipe the question was specifically about the Walther SSP, there's no mention of the Morini. Lack of an electronic trigger ""limit the SSP when training for RF when compared to another firearm which does have one (Pardini, MG2E for example). Pretty simple really

MG2inAus wrote:
Jipe the question was specifically about the Walther SSP, there's no mention of the Morini.

Yes, "MG2inAUS", you are qiuite right.

Apart from that, the new Morini CM 22 "light, or alu", that is, is an interesting tool too.
I owned the former generation af the CM22. It was hampered by a few drawbacks:
- Awkward indexfinger position on trigger (triggerblade angle and position to be blamed)
- Unusual thumb shelf on original Morini grip.
- "Rought", ringed chambers, due to improper reaming/finishing of chambers, and inproper quality control. The rough chambers caused the cases to stick in the chamber, occasionally, negatively influencing cycling/feeding/ejection of the gun.
The bolt proved too heavy too, for match-grade pistol ammo. Would not cycle reliably with soft ammo.
- Old-fashioned rear sight. No finger knobs. Limited blade width adjustability. And limited vertical djustability of rear sight.


I have long since traded off that gun.
Most of the shortcomings of the earlier model have been corrected now, I believe.

I am considering purchase of a CM 22 alu, RF myself.
And have a MG2 rear sight assembly ifitted to the CM 22 frame. If feasible.
Quite some microlathe work involved , I think. But I may go for it.

- - -
How is your MG2 working, "Aussie"?
Some issues? No?

And "DiscoStu" thans for your review of your new SSP.

Thers is an steady influx of complaints about the trigger of the SSP:
- setting will not stay put
- difficult to adjust properly

And, regardless of adjustment(s), "evil thongues" claim the triggerpull of the SSP is inferior to that of the GSP.

And, to my knowledge, the GSP, all models of same, was hardly ever reknown for a good triggerpull?

MG2-owner wrote: And, regardless of adjustment(s), "evil thongues" claim the triggerpull of the SSP is inferior to that of the GSP.

And, to my knowledge, the GSP, all models of same, was hardly ever reknown for a good triggerpull?

Before buying my CM22M RF, I was shooting with a GSP Expert and one of the motivation to look for another pistol was the trigger.

Indeed the trigger of the GSP is not what one would expect from a modern pistol and the trigger of the Morini is much much better.

The trigger of a Pardini or the Morini is better than the one of the SSP, but I wouldn't say that the trigger of the SSP is worse than the one of the GSP, I think that this is really "evil thonges" !

MG2inAus wrote:Jipe the question was specifically about the Walther SSP, there's no mention of the Morini.

Did you read the post of Reinhamre ?

jipe wrote: The trigger of a Pardini or the Morini is better than the one of the SSP, but I wouldn't say that the trigger of the SSP is worse than the one of the GSP, I think that this is really "evil thonges" !

I have to agree, after just one shot dry fired I was put off the SSP by the "glock like" feel of the trigger!

You know......if the SSP trigger was to be used as a free pistol, I would have to agree....but , in the real world of rapid fire, standard pistol, and even sport pistol to some extent, I defy anyone to tell the difference in trigger subtly during the fast firing stages [ which is most of the event ].
Try it for yourself....next time you fire the rapid fire event, or standard 10 sec. series, try to determine the differences between the triggers you are praising, and that of the SSP ......RIGHT...its impossible, so why all the hoo haa about a feature that is not really as relevant in such events as one may think. Don't worry, I too have stood there in serious anticipation, comparing various trigger releases, waiting for the magical "virgin release". However, all I am saying is that in the events we use these pistols, I believe that time constraints and adrenalin overshadow trigger crispness far more.

deadeyedick wrote: in the real world of rapid fire, standard pistol, and even sport pistol to some extent, I defy anyone to tell the difference in trigger subtly during the fast firing stages [ which is most of the event ].

Thats a very good point, and you are right.

But, when the asking price is considerably more that the other pistols in that part of the market I would have hoped for something better. First impressions count and for me personally, this first impression put me off the SSP.

deadeyedick wrote:You know......if the SSP trigger was to be used as a free pistol, I would have to agree....but , in the real world of rapid fire, standard pistol, and even sport pistol to some extent, I defy anyone to tell the difference in trigger subtly during the fast firing stages [ which is most of the event ].
Try it for yourself....next time you fire the rapid fire event, or standard 10 sec. series, try to determine the differences between the triggers you are praising, and that of the SSP ......RIGHT...its impossible, so why all the hoo haa about a feature that is not really as relevant in such events as one may think. Don't worry, I too have stood there in serious anticipation, comparing various trigger releases, waiting for the magical "virgin release". However, all I am saying is that in the events we use these pistols, I believe that time constraints and adrenalin overshadow trigger crispness far more.

So, a manufacturer is free to provide a less than best trigger action, because the shooter will not notice it for 2/3 of his shooting? IMHO, that is not acceptable.

I agree completely that the trigger feel should at least match other pistols, especially considering the price, and not feel like a piece of crap, as the Walther first stage does....however, I wouldn't be put off purchasing one by this point alone, if other design features such as grip angle, and general handling wern't as good as they are.
After using one in real world conditions, I found much to like about the SSP, and as I said earlier, the trigger "feel" slid into the background in the heat of competition, and was not noticeable. That certainly doesn't excuse Walther from producing such a feeble first stage ....but who knows...they may have felt it wasn't relevant considering the type of events the pistol was to be used for. [ watch this last comment bring a response ]

deadeyedick wrote: in the real world of rapid fire, standard pistol, and even sport pistol to some extent, I defy anyone to tell the difference in trigger subtly during the fast firing stages [ which is most of the event ].

If that were true, it still doesn't excuse a poor trigger on an expensive gun !

And it isn't the case - in the rapid stages of the aforementioned, the 1st stage will be taken up as you're waiting for the targets to face so you want a smooth crisp feel so you can sit on the 2nd stage with confidence.

If a company can't be bothered to get a simple thing like the trigger right, then what confidence does that give the buyer that the rest of it will function properly, all the time ?

Rob.

I really enjoy reading all the inputs on the SSP. I have a GSP classic with the new trigger version. Bought it in 1992 and has the "Made in West Germany" stamp. This gun has been very reliable. On a good days, I can shoot >90% in all three courses of fire. However I find this gun a bit heavy because I find it harder to keep the sight alignment steady after shooting it for a while. This also has to do with my weak arm too. Thus I woud love to have a lighter gun and with reduced muzzle flip/recoil is a plus. So I have been trying to find out more about the SSP and how it performs. This will help me with the decision factor on getting a SSP.

Hopefully the R&D folks at Walther read this forum and get direct input from the users. Otherwise they will be out of touch with the users (and the real world too) and have their market share taken away by their competitors.

kbc

Trigger on a SSP is not so good from factory.
You have to strip the gun, clean it and re lube
It may not be known to all that a SSP does not have a hammer. The firing pin is released by trigger. (The firing pin is not a "pin" but that is a different story)
On a free pistol match a week ago one shooter had 94 in first 10 shot with a SSP (7 x 10 and 3 x 8) Yes; LUCK had something to do with this, but NOT everything though. He ended up sub 500. Remember, free pistol is a 50 meter thing……

Rear sight. If you are a shooter (like me) that needs to have your rear sight very high, the SSP may cause trouble. The rear sight is not as rigid as I like it. Yes, I may consider buying a SSP or CM22RF or Pardini SP22 1 but today I will go with my Hämmerli 280.

Kent