TargetTalk

Effective development requires the improvement of performance in the discrete technical skills needed to perform the overall sport. [side note about "traditional" vs. "games" approaches to coaching; in either approach the holistic skills needed to perform the overall sport will need to be disaggregated into simpler task units.]

For example, playing baksetball (a complex sport relative to shooting) requires technical skills in passing, dribbling, catching, running, etc.

What are the discrete technical skills in pistol shooting? I am primarily concerned with International Slow Fire Shooting.

The AMU guide seems like a good place to start . . .

Settling in Aiming Area
- Stance
- Position
- Grip
- Breathing

Sight Alignment
- Front-Rear Sight Relationship
- Focus on Front Sight
- Concentration

Trigger Control
- Independent Movement of Trigger Finger
- Smooth Release of Firing Mechanism
- Positive, Uninterrupted Pressure/Surprise Break

Comment? Any ideas on how these "Big Three" interact? What do you all see when "in the zone" shooting a series of well-executed shots? Does this framework help you focus your training effort/how does this structure help you improve your technique?

Jeez Steve,

You joined!

Once I get over the shock I will respond...


M

Steve Swartz wrote: <snip>
The AMU guide seems like a good place to start . . .

Settling in Aiming Area
- Stance
- Position
- Grip
- Breathing

Sight Alignment
- Front-Rear Sight Relationship
- Focus on Front Sight
- Concentration

Trigger Control
- Independent Movement of Trigger Finger
- Smooth Release of Firing Mechanism
- Positive, Uninterrupted Pressure/Surprise Break

Comment? Any ideas on how these "Big Three" interact? What do you all see when "in the zone" shooting a series of well-executed shots? Does this framework help you focus your training effort/how does this structure help you improve your technique?

When shooting well and in the zone, it'll be mostly smooth, calming breathing for me. I (lighlty) concentrate on a smooth raise straight up through the target, and then I switch to the sights. I orientate the sights a little bit above target, during the descent, at which time I start taking up the 1st stage. As I come into the target I'm only thinking of sights, aligning as I come to a halt just below the black.

In the golden period, it's 100% sights. Well almost, 5% is triggering but best shots are when that's totally subconscious, but that doesn't happen all the time just yet.

Rob.

Well it's been a couple of days . . . I guess I can assume that nobody really has any quibbles with the USAMU technique elements?

The next big question is to consider the elements holistically how do they relate to each other?

I suggest developing a "causal map" of how the elements relate to delivery of the perfect shot.

reading left to right

Good Settle in Aiming Area -->
Deliver
Perfect Alignment ------------> Perfect
Shot
Perfect Trigger Control ------>


Going one level backwards then, each of the subordinate sub-elements within each element then causes the resulting element.

The key is that the "prerequisite elements" must be both NECESSARY and SUFFICIENT conditions for hte result to occur. In other words, if we wokr on improving the sub-elements for trigger control, then trigger control will improve. If we work on settling, aligning, and perfecdting the trigger, then our ability to deliver the perfect shot will follow.

Yes? No? Who Cares?

Oh hell

ASCII formatting apparently doesn't work

Hopefully attachment came through

Steve Swartz wrote:If we work on settling, aligning, and perfecdting the trigger, then our ability to deliver the perfect shot will follow.

Yes, up to a point. That's fine for a few shots but I am not sure how complete it is after, for example, having shot 20 perfect (scoring) shots.

BTW, regarding your next post, what attachment? ;-)

Oh bollocks

O.K. you "power users" out there have a good chuckle

With (I think) David's addition

See (I hope?) attachment this time

(doesn't allow .pptx extensions!)

While the method described may be your way of shooting a ten, and may be very repeatable (and easily understood by most shooters), I doubt if the stages are either necessary of sufficient.

Give a group of kids the airguns and basic instruction on aligning the sights and not moving them while the trigger is operated and you will find several differing ways to shoot a ten. Not all will be repeatable, but this shows the steps are not NECESSARY.

As far as SUFFICIENT, I think we've all had perfect alignment but it did not result in a ten becasue we could not get the shot to go off (the dreaded chicken finger).

I am primarily a rifle coach, and see lots of variation in positions among top shooters, who all have extremely high results. I suspect the same is true in pistol shooting - lots of different ways to acomplishe the same result. Sometimes I think we let our own learning technique preferences override our decision in how someone else should be learning (and doing). For example most shooters keep a written diary, but I have one shooter who uses drawings instead of words in the diary. This is a very "right brained" individual and it works for him.

We aren't all square pegs to be put in square holes.

Steve Swartz wrote: The next big question is to consider the elements holistically how do they relate to each other?

The diagram does not portray their interaction, at least not as I experience it. For example, my sight alignment and trigger control against a blank card are pretty good. I can keep the front sight sharp and see nothing move when the trigger 'clicks' for many repetitions. Add a bull, however, and alignment and trigger control are now 'connected' with the introduction of the settling process. Or am I simply not understanding the chart?

Hey Steve,

After following some of the material here, I just wondered if "Perfect" could or should be replaced by "Optimal". "Perfect" seems so unachievable and unlikely for such a complex process, although the intention of the result might be "Perfect", i.e. score a 10.9, or inside your area of aim, or whatever your intention was, at the moment of release. Maybe it should be more like an Aristotelian "Perfectness" of trigger control and sight alignment, as to strive for the model or ideal of "Perfect" to achieve the result of our process.

toznerd

This is going to be a lengthy post.But please think about the problem of delivering your best shot. First hold the pistol as still as you can. When is the stillness under best control ? Isn't that when you have the best oppertunity for a good controlled shot? How can you cause the pistol to fire consistantly during that time? Start the pressure moving against the trigger prior to the best hold. Remember that eye focus cannot be maintained indefinately. Worse , if you try you may burn an image into the shooting eye and be seeing something that no longer exists when the pistol finally fires. Rapid blinking of the eye just before you lock up on the sight with focused vision has been known to help with this problem. Next is the intense mental focus of concentration as that is also limited as full concentration cannot be maintained indefinately and a break in that concentration almost guarentees a less than perfect shot. Now you have focused on the front sight and must maintain total concentration on sight allignment until after the pistol has fired . I left breathing until last because this seems to be a fairly simple process. I personally prefer the method used by the rifle shooters of taking a couple of deep breaths , let the last one out to the resperatory pause because this is where the least muscle tension exists in the diafram and less muscle tension allows a stiller hold. It is the careful cooridination of these control factors that gives the shooter the best chance for a perfect shot on target. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Perhaps it is a matter of digramming preference . . .

. . . I think the interactions occur at a lower level (ie interactions not between the intermediate factors "Trigger Control" and "Alignment" but between the subelements that go into both of them).

Steve, I concur with the value of diagraming the process. Let me just discus one element of the coordination of the control factors. Trigger control errors can be detected by analizing how often the period of best stillness has passed before the pistol has fired. Should this be detected. the shooter has several options. First and simplist is to apply more initial pressure and continue to apply pressure to the trigger at the same rate as before. This will cause the pistol to discharge sooner. Another approach is to just start the finger moving sooner in the sequence, Another would have the shooter retrain his application of pressure to increase the speed of pressure application.[ this is IMHO the most difficult correction to make] Using Ed Hall's description of the adjustable stages, the shooter may be able to coordinate trigger with hold by adjusting the first stage which relates to greater initial pressure. Good Shooting Bill Horton

2650 Plus wrote:Steve, I concur with the value of diagraming the process. Let me just discus one element of the coordination of the control factors. Trigger control errors can be detected by analizing how often the period of best stillness has passed before the pistol has fired. Should this be detected. the shooter has several options. First and simplist is to apply more initial pressure and continue to apply pressure to the trigger at the same rate as before. This will cause the pistol to discharge sooner. Another approach is to just start the finger moving sooner in the sequence, Another would have the shooter retrain his application of pressure to increase the speed of pressure application.[ this is IMHO the most difficult correction to make] Using Ed Hall's description of the adjustable stages, the shooter may be able to coordinate trigger with hold by adjusting the first stage which relates to greater initial pressure. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Some excellent points, Bill. I have tried the first two, and prefer the first, but have to admit that I have not trained hard/diligently enough to firmly embed it in my process.

Just a short response here and maybe out of context but here i go. Just wanted to highlight that the ability to reproduce a a series of discrete skills does not always guarantee the successful result. When i shoot i try to image the shot before raising the pistol. This makes it a more natural process and doesn't require as much conscious thought as the diagram suggests is required. If we are thinking front sight, alignment, aiming area, trigger we are creating a bottleneck in our thought process similar to what happens when we become tense and stressed.

For me you need to highlight that although you can and should practice each individual element it is practicing them as a whole that will develop the best results. For me the aim is to only have to think shoot a 10 and let my subconscious do the rest. This fits with what Fred says above about having good trigger control but struggling when aiming at the bull. Too much concious thought jams our short term memory workspace and hinders our performance.

As a second thought the only thing you need to shoot a perfect ten is the correct aim. It is repeating the process that requires training of the various discrete skills.

Finally (like i said apologies if out of context) much research has been completed to show that feedback on performance and results leads to an increased performance at a greater rate. So if you are to practice the individual discrete skills then it is your performance not the result that matters. Eg does the pistol remain still when trigger engaged as opposed to did the pellet hit the appropriate area when trigger was released.

Thanks for starting this thread hope i've not drifted off topic too much.

Shawn

Amazing how a diagram can act as a Rorsach Blot . . .

It's a cause and effect diagram; simply mapping the Necessary and Sufficient conditions for the result.

Shawn, if you're new to the forum welcome aboard!

There is a Metric Buttload of great technique/process discussion that is available in threads of yore.

[FYI we've already hashed out the role of the conscious (aligning), settling (semi-autonomic) and triggering (subconscious) mechanisms. By "Hashed Out" of course I mean argued over- not that there was consensus. Search on our "subconscious trigger" discussions/trigger drives sights vs. sights drive trigger philosophies. Of course, by posting the diagram it was precisely my intent to start this type of discussion; so please don't think I'm cracking on you- quite the contrary- I just don't want you to plow into the discussion somewhat "unadorned by history!"]

As to your comment "As a second thought the only thing you need to shoot a perfect ten is the correct aim. It is repeating the process that requires training of the various discrete skills" I would argue

Umm, no. The only thing you guarantee by working on "the correct aim" is a permanent sopt on a plateau of misery . . . there is a very purposeful reason why "correct aim" is *not* included at this level . . .

Let The Games Begin!

Hi Steve

Thanks for the welcome Steve

When i said that you only need perfect aim to hit a ten i mean in real terms if the barrel is aimed at the 10 when the trigger is pulled you hit a ten.

My point was to suggest that you are not trying to create a perfect ten but a repeatable shot with the highest probability of scoring ten. I agree that training just to have the perfect aim is pointless. Instead i break my technique down further than you. Rather than sight alignment i concentrate on vertical movement, horiizontal movement etc. Use of Scatt or similar really helps. Just labelling sight alignment really doesn't do it justice. Plus you could argue that there should be arrows between each of the first three sections. Sight alignment is irrelevant if you can only do it when you are not worried about trigger release.

I try to ensure my training is relevant to the whole skill and each section is performed as a whole with a measure of the performance.

E.g to practice trigger control i complete a normal 60 shot match but i only look at my Scatt graphs and video footage of barrel movement to give me feedback so i'm not getting hung up on aiming and score.

Shawn

Here's the original again that kicked this all off.

I was attempting to socratically build the diagram for those playing at home.

My end game is to improve the fidelity of the model, include detailed descriptions, and provide drills for each element and subelement. I already have all this of course, but my intent is to put it out logically for critique and improvement.

In order to build an "independent study" course in "optimizing yoiur training efforts."

And the third evolution

(Who was it who showed me how to post attachments?!? Yee-Haw!)

Oh sorry but about that align vs aim thing-

If you release the shot when you have "perfect sight picture" the muzzle isn't going to be there anymore by the time the skirt clears.

The shot has to be released *before* perfect sight picture, and while the muzzle is swinging into perfect position.