TargetTalk

Hi all,

I am going abroad for the first time to the
2008 Canadian Grand Prix with my Steyr LP10.
I have the temporary license and ATT for the
Canadian side, but just found out that I might
have trouble coming back. I'm leaving from Lansing
MI, flying to Detroit Metropolitan Airport, and
then flying to Toronto. Then coming back the same
way.

I know that you need to get a form from US
Customs, and have them stamp it, so that you
can return to the country with your air pistol.
But how do you do this? Usually, when you
check your bags, you check them to the destination.
Do you check your bag containing the air pistol to the port of entry, like from Lansing to Detroit, take them out, run like mad to the US Customs office, and then get the form and then get it stamped when they inspect the pistol, then recheck the bags, then go to the terminal? How is this possible when there is little time between changing planes?

Could someone please tell me how to do this soon!
Also, is it possible to go to a port of entry, a day
ahead of time, by driving, and then get the form
stamped?

Thanks!
Alice

Alice, you can start breathing now. US Customs doesn't need or want to know about your air pistol. I have driven to the CAGP twice, crossing at Niagara. Canadian Customs does their job in a quiet, businesslike way. On the way back, the US guys ask country of citizenship - USA and anything to declare - NO.

If you have any trouble at all it will be with TSA getting it on the plane (see previous posts on this subject).

Alice: I have travelled with rifles many times outside the U.S., and the customs form you mentioned is needed, but I have only had one person ask for it one time. You just take your pistol or whatever to the customs office that is nearest to you, fill out the form, they check the serial # and then sign and date it. Take it with you and keep it handy when you come back. Like I said, I only needed my form once. Hope this helps.
Don in Oregon

How about on a plane? aside from complying with
normal airline regulations, how to deal
with US customs going through an international
airport?

Alice, 1 more time, US Customs has no interest in your air pistol; fuggedabout them. As far as they're concerned your LP10 is like any other personal effects (imagine the nightmare if every trip outside the US required Customs examination of everybody's camera or blow-dryer!). Still worried? Have the sales receipt with you to show that you're bringing back your own previously owned property. Firearms are a different story.

While in Canada, trigger lock and locked case are de rigeur.

Make sure your cylinders are empty as there are TSA regulations against compressed gasses, and make sure you bring your fill adaptor so you can fill-up at the match.

I suggest to make it easier on the US side only bring one cylinder make sure its empty and attach it to your pistol. If they ask to see it show them. show them thats it's empty while it's still on the pistol, do not offer to take it off.

DO NOT attempt to fly outside the U.S. with the LP10 without having the U.S. Customs and Border Protection agency fill out a copy of Department of Homeland Security Form CBP 4457, Certificate of Registration for Personal Effects Taken Abroad. The form asks for your name, address, and a description of the articles you are taking outside the U.S. It is intended for high dollar items, generally originating outside the U.S., but is also used for firearms. Many airlines flying internationally [Air France for one] will not let you check your arms unless you have the form, and many foreign contries will ask you for the form if you try and enter with arms -- very broadly defined.

Take the LP10 to to the nearest Customs and Border Protection office -- there will be one at airports serving international air traffic. You can take the LP10 to the Customs office any time before you travel, so the process does not have to be a last minute knee jerk. If you can't do it in Lansing or another border control point, you had best plan on enough time in Detroit to do it there. Customs will examine the pistol, verify your data and the description/serial number of the pistol, and fill out the form for you. The CBP Form 4457 is good as long as you own the LP10 and you maintain the form in legiable condition. Since the LP10 is a high dollar item manufactured outside the U.S., the Form 4457 also documents that it originated in the U.S. and that you are not trying to smuggle it or evade any applicable customs duties.

I drove to Canada several years ago, taking three muzzle loading pistols [an original 1858 Remington, a reproduction 1858 Remington, and a cap lock dueling pistol] for an international match. Since the Candians regarded them as "restricted" arms, I had preregistered them in Canada, had my Candian customs declaration, and my Canadian Authorization to Transport (ATT). The Canadians wanted them in locked cases, and with trigger locks. I had been incorrectly told that I did not need a CBP Form 4457 since the guns were not "firearms" under the U.S. National Firearms Act or the 1968 Gun Control Act. Coming back to the U.S near Niagra Falls we were detained for several hours by U.S. Customs because I did not have the 4457. At one point they were going to have BATF seize my guns. No, I was not being an a__hole. I'm a retired Federal agent, I worked extensively with Customs while I was a cop, and I know better. Since I could document through the Canadian forms that I had taken the pistols out of the U.S., reason finally prevailed, they released me with the guns, and executed a copy of the Form 4457 for me.

Enjoy your trip, but exercise an abundence of caution. As Dorothy said, "Toto, we're not in Kansas anymore!"

I'll be shooting in the CAGP and always comply with Canadian law. I also comply with US law but don't think there is any control on my air pistol coming in from Canada.
Not to stir this pot, but I think some misinformation is going around. My air pistol is NOT considered a firearm in the US. It is in Canada. I have no intention of filling out Form 4457, are you saying I'm doing something illegal? Please refer me to the applicable law website.

Roly wrote:I'll be shooting in the CAGP and always comply with Canadian law. I also comply with US law but don't think there is any control on my air pistol coming in from Canada.
Not to stir this pot, but I think some misinformation is going around. My air pistol is NOT considered a firearm in the US. It is in Canada. I have no intention of filling out Form 4457, are you saying I'm doing something illegal? Please refer me to the applicable law website.

Alice is from Michigan. In Michigan Air Pistol is considered as a firearm by Law! So she must filling out the Form 4457.
I done it last year too.
Russ

Russ wrote:

Roly wrote:I'll be shooting in the CAGP and always comply with Canadian law. I also comply with US law but don't think there is any control on my air pistol coming in from Canada.
Not to stir this pot, but I think some misinformation is going around. My air pistol is NOT considered a firearm in the US. It is in Canada. I have no intention of filling out Form 4457, are you saying I'm doing something illegal? Please refer me to the applicable law website.

Alice is from Michigan. In Michigan Air Pistol is considered as a firearm by Law! So she must filling out the Form 4457.
I done it last year too.
Russ

.
So it is to conform to state law and not federal law, or does meeting the federal law comply with Michigan law? I'll be entering Canada and returning through New York. Anyone know the NY law? Wait a second, Customs is run byt the US, not the border state! So what's up with Michigan and how do they know?

Traveling outside the U.S. has gotten very strange post 9/11, particularly traveling with anything that is or looks like a firearm. Air pistols are not considered firearms under the National Firearms Act, the 1968 Gun Control Act, or other Federal legislation. Neither were my three muzzle loading pistols, which was why I found Customs' initial determination that they were going to call BATF to seize my pistols interesting. Under Federal statute, BATF didn't have any jurisdiction over them. However, air pistols and muzzle loaders may be considered as firearms under the law of some U.S. states, and most certainly are considered as firearms in many foreign countries.

In addition to firearms, the CBP Form 4457 covers items of significant value manufactured outside the U.S. The 4457 documents that you are merely bringing back into the U.S. something that you legally owned here before you left the U.S. I suggest that anyone who does not believe me Google two terms: Customs [and] 4457. There are a number of sites -- official and unofficial -- out there with comments about use of the 4457. Owners of foreign manufactured cameras [what camera isn't foreign made these days] have reported problems with Customs wanting to charge duties on foreign made cameras that U.S. persons purchased in the U.S., took out of the U.S., and were returning to the U.S.

If you choose not to have Customs fill out the Form 4457, any resulting problems are on your head. Customs law is a strange animal. At the border your are essentially guilty until your are proven innocent. Don't expect the Customs people to know the fine points of what is and is not a firearm. If it looks like one, many of them will conclude that it is. Look at the problems people had with TSA while trying to fly with cylinders for their air pistols and rifles, and have reported on this site.

(Continued)

From the NRA-ILA Guide to Transportation of Firearms:

"More information can be obtained from the Canadian Firearms Centre via the internet at www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca or by calling the Canadian Firearms Centre information line at 1-800-731-4000. All firearms must be declared and registered with United States Customs on form 4457 or any other registration document available for the purpose of facilitating reentry into the United States with the same firearms."

From the USA Shooting Code of Conduct:

"22. Athletes traveling outside of the U.S. are required to have a U.S. Customs form #4457 listing their rifle, pistol or shotgun make, model and serial number. This requirement is to be completed prior to domestic departure and can be accomplished by taking your guns to any U.S. Customs office for verification of serial number and form completion."

Might be that they know what they are talking about, even if I don't.

Regards,
Don

Wow, Fascinating,
I drive to Canada very often to visit relatives and friends via British Columbia on I-5. I dont live near the border so everytime I cross I put my guns away either on friends or on lockers somewhere.
Yes: The Canadian border people are very nice: where do you live, where are you going, and then go.
Yes: it is a kind a pain in the a..ss to re enter our country. I once had a lot of paper targets in my trunk and they almost wanted to search my car for weapons, they asked me about the paper targets ( International 50 yards) and where do I shoot, etc.
Once, it was about midnight and they asked me if I was bringing something from Canada, I said no. . the agent said, what about that Canadian 2 liter pop I had inn the back of my car. I said Oh,, yeah, my friends after dinner gave me that. .. the officer said, What about that Mc Donald bag you have there. yes,, my son was hungry and didn't like my friends cooking so we stop to buy a big Mac to go. ... then my son ( a teenager) opened his big mouth and attempted to start an argument with the officer. ... things almost went terrible wrong,,, I used my brains (besides I was ultra tired) and we went speed off.
Wow. C

Thanks everybody,

I ended up not having enough time to get the customs form filled out
before the competition. Next time, I will. This time I was lucky,
US customs were fine, and didn't even want to look at it.

However,
the Canadian employees of Delta gave me a hard time coming back:
when I declared my air pistol, they didn't know the rules, and when I told them I had a copy, they claimed that Delta just changed the rules three
weeks before ( although I traveled and printed out the rules for
airline travel 3 days before). They said that a gun case must be checked
separately, and was not supposed to be inside a suitcase/checked luggage.

That would have necessitated me paying for another checked piece of
luggage, and would have put my aluminum pistol case at risk for
being stolen, because it was an obvious gun case.

I asked to see the supervisor, and just barely persuaded them
that it was legal to put a gun case inside the checked luggage.
They claimed that no one had ever seen a gun case put inside
the luggage, EVER. Isn't it normal to put it inside the luggage?

Alice

Alice,
Congratulations on surviving the experience and topping your class. I hope you'll not be deterred from going next year. If you plan ahead, perhaps you can find another Michigan shooter and drive to Toronto together.

wangahh wrote:Thanks everybody,
..
They claimed that no one had ever seen a gun case put inside
the luggage, EVER. Isn't it normal to put it inside the luggage?

Alice

Hi Alice,

I am planning to travel with my AP and have made the necessary inquiries valid for Germany. The guys over here from Lufthansa told me: Of course you would have your gun case stored inside the luggage - exactly for preventing theft..

It is probably as your said: they did not know the rules (and invented some out of the blue)..

kind regards

Axel

When I travel with actual firearms I always put them in a seperate case, but if it just an air pistol, that case goes inside my suitcase.

Flying inside Canada Westjet is the best, never had an issue. Air Canada now charges extra for firearms.

When I took my air pistol to Germany there was no problem going there but coming back the Lufthansa agent called the police which then took me to another area. They had to look at the air pistol, wanted to know if I had a license (which isn't need in either Canada nor Germany for my air pistol), they then were concerned that there was a partial tin of pellets in the suit case (can't store ammo with the firearm, except its not a firearm in niether of our countries) as I was removing my licence they caught a glimpse of my credentials. Amazingly the questioning stopped and they told me to have a nice trip and checked my baggage with the fragile hand deliver only luggage. When I told them to keep the pellets if thats a problem that seemed to really cause some problems, they tol its ok put them back in the bag (I take it if they kept them it probably would have required paper work on their part). Overall they were very polite and just doing their job, and it was only a minor hassle.