TargetTalk

What defines the length between the trigger and the buttplate?A shooter told me that the ''bigger'' in size the shooter is,the length rises.He also told me that it affects the riffle's balance.Some help on this?
Thank you.

The distance from the butt of the rifle to the trigger should be about the same as the distance from the inside of the shooter's bent elbow to his bent trigger finger.

Hello Hap Rocketto.
I know that but when I make this adjustment,the riffle does not feets me best.That's why I have set it to the shortest it can be but I've been told that this might be wrong...

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting the question, but I feel that the length of the buttstock must be set according to the eye relief intrinsic to the position. As an example, when I shoot in the prone position my head is forward on the stock. I keep the rear sight in a nominal position and lengthen by buttstock about 5 cm. When I move to the standing position, my head is more upright. I slide the rear sight back on its dovetail and shorten the buttstock to maintain a consistant eye relief. Making the buttstock shorter also shifts the balance point of the rifle, placing more of the weight over support structure of my position when shooting standing. But as always, this is what works for me -- You should experiment to find what works for you. Good luck.

Tsokasn, teaching a goup of novice shooters at my shooting club in The Netherlands and measuring a number of (sub)top level Dutch shooters in the 3 positions I came to the following conclusions:
Te butt length depends not only on the length of the shooter but also on the shape of his body - more or less 'flesh'. Two people of the same length,one thin the other fat, will have different buttlength - the thinner person will have a longer butt because there is more room between his shoulder and his triggerhand.
Also there are some 'rules of thumb' tot start with.
Heinz Reinkemeier ("way's of the rifle") has the following rule: the starting length (standing and prone - rear of buttplate to front of grip) is the distance from the elbowtip to the wristknuckle, plus or minus 3cm.
After a lot of measuring and averaging I found the following rule of thumb very usefull and accurate:
Bend the upper and lowerarm in an angle of 90 degrees to each other and stretch the lowerarm-hand-and fingers in a straight line. Place the rifle with the buttplate in the elbowpit and let the rifle lay parrallel to the lower arm. Fold only the fingers. When they fold around the grip without bending the wrist, the length is correct for prone and standing. (look at biathlon shooters. Their buttlength is the same for those 2 positions). When you do the same procedure but shorten the buttlengt bij aprox. 1.5 to 2cm (1 to 1.5 inch) the buttlength is correct for kneeling.
This way you have adjusted your rifle to your body size and shape.
Things to look for: in the shooting position the angle between upper and lower arm should be aprox. 70 to 80 degrees). When in shooting position and bringing your hand foreward to the grip the rifle must not be pushed forward by the shoulder (teh buttlength is to long)- but when relaxing the shoulder while holding the grip, the pressure of the buttplate in the shoulder must not become lesser (must stay the same, buttlength to short).

The buttlengt is determined by the distance "rear of buttplate to front of grip". This regulates the pressure of the shoulder against the rifle. After that is done, you adjust the position of the trigger (shifting it forwards or bachwards) to accomplish that your triggerfinger is 90 degrees to the trigger and the centerline of the bore.

This is only a starting procedure and from there you must adjust by steps of 2mm (1/10th inch) maximum, making the buttlength longer or shorter untill everything feels right. A change of only 1mm can have an enourmous effect on how the rifle reacts.

If all is done correct (shooting position and adjustments of the rifle to the shooter) the muzzle moves in a straight and vertical line when breating and during the shot (recoil).


Albert B
(The Netherlands)

VERY usefull tips!

I am most in aggrement with the shooter that adjusts his stock to maintain the most consistant eye relief.There is also a need to adjust the stock to achieve proper ballance of the rifle and shooter when in the various firing positions altho shifting of weights can also help keep the balance where it is most advantageous to the shooter in stablizing his / her position. Sorry I do not feel I can be more precise as different body types have different requirements. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Bill, In my oppinion : if you adjust the bettlength to obtain the proper eye relief, you force the body into a position that is resulting in muscle force (causing trembling and movement) and uncomfortable hold/position. The proper eye relief is obtained by first getting in the most stable shooting position and then sliding the rearsight forward or backwards until the sight picture looks best (clear and proper relation between iris opening, insert diameter and target (prone position more forward then kneeling, standing more to the rear than kneeling).
Balance of the rifle is adjusted after finding the correct adjustments and then putting on weights either at the front (kneeling and prone) or at the rear (standing). Balance is dependent on a combination of many variabeles like type of rifle, shooting position body position, body size, weight and shape and most of all personal preferences.
Personally I like the old type weights (a rod with several weights that can be shifted forward and backward) that can be attached to the underside of the stock and can be canted sideways to correct for cant of the rifle. Most imortant when using weights is to keep their centerpoint of weight exactly in a vertical line under the centerline of the bore. Otherwise the extra weight on the right/left side of the centerpoint of weight of the rifle together with the recoil and the upward movement of the rifle will cause the rifle to rotate around its horizontal axes - it starts to swrirl sideways during the recoil/upward movement.

Albert B
(The Netherlands)

Albert , I hesitate to say anything that might seem to contradict what you have posted,. Nevertheless , I do consider shortening the distance from the butt to the trigger, moving the center of the rifles ballance between the supporting feet and reducing the amount the shooter has to incline the upper body away from the target line to be a distinct advantage. Relaxation and reduced sway contribute to better control of the rifle and [hopefully] better scores. You understand that I am refering to standing only. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Bill, I agree that centerpoint of balance must be somewhere between the feet (standing position) or above the left leg/foot (righthanded shooter) with the right leg acting as a diagonal support, and that bringing the balance of the rifle to the rear gives less sway.
The risk of shortening the buttlength to far is that when the right arm is relaxed, the butt is drawn foreward from the shoulder as the balancepoint of the rifle is a little in front of the supporting hand - The reason that hooks were invented. It comes down to a compromise between buttlength and balance. I only use weights in prone and kneeling, because my old model Walther KK-match (GX-1) is light (6.7kg with all weights attached) and has the balancepoint far the rear - compared to an Anschutz (about the same weight but without attached weights).
This weekend I watched the World Championship Biathlon. It seems the Germans worked towards this event, beeing at their best. Female champion in both sprint and persuit, males also a world champion. And there are more events to follow in this championship....

Albert B
(The Netherlands)

Refering to Albert's last reply.
What are the hooks you mentioned?

Tsokasn, Not knowing the correct english name for it, I meant the shoulderhook (as we call it) at the bottem-rear of the buttplate. These were first used with the Schutzen-rifles (as I understand it a form of shooting in the standing position with low power rifles, originating from Germany - others can give more info on this). I know of many (Dutch) shooters who shorten their hook, because the end part has little function in prone and kneeling. They unscrew the rear part of the hook so that they are left with a short hook like used with biathlon.

A small question from my side: has anyone have experience with RWS Rifle Match ammo? How much is the difference in speed between lot numbers? - I want to use it as training ammo.

Albert B
(The Netherlands)

David Parish advises that one should hold the pistol grip with as much force as one would hold a wet milk bottle. In "Ways of the Rifle" it is recommenced that the pressure should act towards the center of the grip and butt pressure should be in harmony with the other pressures of the cheekpiece and (I shoot right) left hand.
Could someone please offer advice as to how much one should pull towards the shoulder in the direction of the butt. I've measured my butt length which happened to be within 2 mm. of Albertb's calibrated length. Should one be able to insert a finger between the butt and the jacket? Does it depend on how hgh the elbow of the trigger hand / arm is held? Or does one grasp pistol grip with no forward or backward pressure much as if one were shooting a pistol? I've been shooting (an Anschutz 2013) for some 18 months, and am in the black at 50 m. 99% of the time, so the questions are coming from an amature.
Any help would be appreciated.

I start with Hap's method
Then my coach looked at my stance, and he adjusted the butt plate in as far as it would go (P70-jr). This adjustment might also be based on my not having a shooting jacket and pants.

I pull the rifle into my shoulder...snug.
I have the butt plate adjusted as far down as it would go.

Thanks Gary
I presume that you aren't pulling back at all during aiming / shot release? and basically letting your arm 'hang' in a relaxed manner.
James

Butt Length: In all the trials with butt length, it is found that a bit too short is much perferable than one too long.

Grip pressure: Hold the grip as though holding an egg or a paper tube so as not to crush. This is the only example which I think the book "Ways" is incorrect.

Butt presure: Teach to place the butt in the coat with arm extended, and "pinch" the coat around the butt. Try not to be conscious of "creating" butt pressure, but let the position determine. And consistent.